Doomsday got stronger as the fight went on.
Who else do you know of who gets stronger as a fight goes on, owing to his rage power?
Doomsday owned 7 other heroes before he ever came across Superman.
Who took care of a roster of Avengers, combined X-Men teams, Black Bolt, and the Fantastic Four before taking all Superman-analog Sentry deliver? What did Sentry do after that point? Collapse in a heap, right? And was this not BEFORE Bruce himself went from World War Hulk level to his true World Breaker level?
The reason nothing has convinced you is because you're a Superman hater, thus your judgement is severely clouded.
You bring-up arguments that have already been pointed-out to be incorrect. I pointed-out that Konvict didn't KO Superman. Stunned him? Yes. Killed him? No. And a big issue with that argument is the fact that Superman was fighting in-character, not going for the kill, ect. He was sorta floating there, telling Konvict to "show him." Superman's out for the kill right off the bat here, he won't be waiting to gauge WB Hulk's strength.
Doomsday, it's already been shown the fallacy of this argument you keep bringing-up. Superman's grown in power since, he wasn't out for the kill initially, and he was dying when he beat a barely hurt Doomsday to death in a handful of punches. So Superman going for the kill right off the bat completely invalidates your argument. Especially since I read an interview with Dan Jurgens being asked about this, and he stated Superman did as poorly as he did because he didn't go for the kill immediately.
Atlas, I only vaguely remember the situation, but recall there were extenuating circumstances that I don't think would apply here.
And Superman endured the "shockwave" of an explosion equal to FIFTY SUPERNOVAS. Hulk with help produced force to destroy a planet. There's a huge, huge difference in power there. No spinning about the "difference in force" will change that. And that's without including that Superman was weakened.
But I see your blatant double standards are in full effect here. Holding back only counts for Hulk, but you're completely dismissing it for Superman, who's going for the kill here too.
The flaw in your argument is that Superman was dying from the accumilated injuries in his fight with Doomsday when he finally went all-out and beat Doomsday to death in a handful of punches. In this scenario, Superman is going for the kill from the start.
Last edited by Delta1938 on Aug 15th, 2012 at 08:55 AM
OK, but I didn't think pointing-out double standards or that his hate for Superman clouds his judgment was getting personal. Is that getting personal in your opinion?
Isn't that a Facebook game?
Last edited by Delta1938 on Aug 15th, 2012 at 08:58 AM
Haha with the speed at which the opposing camps are furiously typing, I don't know who Abhi is facepalming at. I'd like to think it was Pr :-p
But back on topic.
I just don't see the levels at which WBH was at would be enough to take Superman out - especially if he does not give Hulk a chance to react.
Bluewater, are you arguing against Superman being able to move as fast as we say he can?
Are you arguing that Hulk can catch him, or at least, react to him in a meaningful way?
Because the argument that he won't, is kinda negated by the facts that A: PIS off means he is able to do it, B: CIS off means that he remembers he can do it, C: out for the kill means he is willing to use it, and D: basic knowledge of each other means he knows the longer the match goes on, the stronger Hulk gets.
If the problem lies with me, why is it you're trying to goad me with adverts for prescription drugs and allusions to homosexual sex?
This argument hasn't been proven incorrect. You bring up a point without bothering to wait for a rebuttal and claim it as a point in your favor. Didn't KO Superman? Did you read the actual story?
You say Superman was up and fighting after a few panels.
Did you forget WHY that was the case? That Wonder Woman and other heroes took the fight to Konvickt as soon as Superman was dropped to save him further injury? Are you proposing that Superman will have allies for THIS fight if the same thing happens?
Who said anything about "gauging his opponent's strength"?
The way of an out for the kill Superman, as you pointed out your self, is to rush straight for his opponent. He did it in Sacrifice where he was willing to kill, he did it in Our Worlds at War. He did it in that alternate timeline you mentioned when he was seeking to avenge Batman's death at the hands of Wonder Woman.
The personality of Superman, regardless of whether he is being merciless OR ruthless in a fight, regardless as to whether we are talking post-Crisis OR pre-Crisis, is to approach his opponent head-on.
You show me some episodes where that is NOT the case.
And you'll need quite a few of them to be convincing, because Superman is NOT the kind of fighter that slyly hangs back, whether he's going to brawl or to try and execute somebody.
In all honesty though, I feel I HAVE to be aggressive. Every time something's brought-up that he can't honestly or legitimately counter, he just ignores it and hopes it can be swept under the rug. You have to fight tooth and nail for him to even ACKNOWLEDGE these examples, let alone admit he's wrong. Look at what he did with the Superman/Orion fight in MOT #13(as evidence Superman was not noticeably Sun-Amped like he argued). He claimed Orion's more durable than Superman and had help. I proved that Superman's more durable, and Orion's "help" was essentially non-existent. He then tried to argue Orion's fighting skills made the difference, I proved by side-by-side comparison that Orion wasn't using any great skill in his fight with Superman. Then he just started ignoring the fact that if Superman(and thus Orion) just isn't on another level, that either Orion was amped, or for some reason Superman's amp didn't kick in until after the fight.
And I see a number of examples similar from him in this thread just since I started posting.
Based on Superman's personality, I see the fight taking place essentially as one of the following showings or like the engagement Hulk had with Gladiator.
Given that Hulk has gone from fighting man-sized Savage Hulk opponents to King Kong sized renditions of them, as shown several pages ago, I don't see where Superman, traditionally held to be the rough equivalent of Savage Hulk at base strength, post-Crisis, has anything to contend with the version of Hulk Greg Pak has been showing us in recent years.
At best the fight STARTS to go along the lines of Superman versus Mongul in "For the Man Who Has Everything", which started with a blitz tackle, or STARTS as the engagement he had with Darkseid in Superman/Batman #13 where he also blitz tackled his opponent.
But I don't see Hulk allowing him to get any farther than Gladiator did with that technique.
For once you grab somebody, even if you move at speed, you are putting them in your same inertial frame.
Superman moving at near light-speed, grabbing Hulk and trying to take him to the sun or wherever?
How is that any different from a rocket trying to take Hulk as a passenger there? It's not.
It'd be like you fighting with someone on a freight train going 100 miles per hour. Yeah, you're a blur to anyone waiting in their car near the crossing, but not to someone ON the train with you.
And that IS how Superman fights.
Direct, in-your-face, grab-you-by-the-collar (or the throat), lay hands on you and get to know you REAL close and personal.
Delta better have a LOT of showings to disprove that as being Superman's style. And I'll wager that for everyone he DOES try to show like that, there'll be 2 or 3 of the kind I'M describing, for Superman is NOT some Spider-Man figure in a cape.
Yeah, I think Supes'll use speed, D.
But, based partly on the consistent STYLE of serious, no-joke Superman in most of the fights I'VE seen to date, I DON'T think that's going to help him much.
Give Superman CIS-less "Maximum speed", but deny Hulk black-hole surviving durability, exponential amping sufficient to obliterate dimensions with a punch ... yeah this makes sense.
WBH literally atomises Superman. Both at their peaks, one is - without outside powers - able to withstand blackholes that knockout and drain Silver Surfer - the other is supposed to attack with near "infinite mass" ... Green Scar wouldn't have any trouble handling that.
Further, Hulk's strength is incalculable and stated to be infinite. So to output ANY kind of infinite energy (kinetic energy even) would in and of itself cause matter to move at (or approaching) lightspeeds no?
There's no way Superman could avoid Hulk's AoE output and there's nothing to suggest he's surviving dimension destroying forces (and those were AT BASE level in HOTM).
I took that scan from another thread , as a response to blue's request for Superman's feat of tanking a 50x supernova . I didn't crop anything , the scan seemed complete to me , so I downloaded it and posted it as it is .
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Last edited by TheGodKiller02 on Aug 15th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
Lulz, just lulz. The limits to which you are reaching. In mongul case he didn't use his speed much and in konvickt case didn't use at all as he invited konvickt to have a free shot.
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Last edited by abhilegend on Aug 15th, 2012 at 10:37 AM
Superman's down for a whole 4 panels and is back in the fight by the sixth. And Wonder Woman was the only one engaging Konvikt at all, not her and other heroes like you claimed, and we only see her throwing one attack before Superman's back up. Fail argument is fail. Not to mention Superman won't be fighting like that here.
Pretty common for Superman to do against new opponents. Too bad that doesn't apply here since CIS is off.
Except, Superman didn't go for the kill in SACRIFICE. As has been proven, he wanted to make Doomsday suffer first. And it wasn't an alternate timeline, that would mean an entirely separate timeline. Time was messed with. But anyways, what is that supposed to prove? Superman one-shot killed someone with superhuman durability and a GL Power Ring, which as has been proven, it's auto-protect gives it MINIMUM protection from the level of force that killed WB Hulk. And Superman did that with one punch. And if there was any difference in power level, Superman was Byrne-level, just not holding back. So it's pretty funny you're trying to argue ABSOLUTE POWER against Superman since it proves him capable of killing Hulk with at most a handful of punches.
One: Not really. Two: What part of "Character-Induced Stupidity OFF" is so hard to factor for Superman? I see you have no problems with factoring it for Hulk. Oh yeah, you're a Superman hater.
So, Hulk holding back in scans you show means when CIS is off he won't be doing that. But when Superman has CIS off and a whole bunch more versatility, nope, you still handicap him. Way to show your impartiality and fairness, Blue.
LMAO!! I don't know if you actually believe what you're saying, or you're just grasping at straws hoping you can brainwash people.
Your comparison to a freight train is laughable. Darkseid wasn't able to stop Superman from dragging him to the Sun, and I believe Darkseid is faster than Hulk. Your example with Gladiator is invalid, since we have blatant proof that Superman was flying Darkseid to the Sun at Faster-Than-Lightspeed. Didn't see anything indicating how quickly Gladiator was moving Hulk.
Unless you can somehow prove that Hulk would actually be able to keep-up and react in time, before Superman could do anything. Or do you think Hulk is faster than energy? Superman did this in less than a nanosecond.
If you note the bottom thought bubble of the first page, he goes, "Almost there" like he's already traveled quite a distance. Then see him travel many, many blocks' worth of distance in the first panel of the second page. All in less than a nanosecond. Considering light travels about a foot in a nanosecond( http://home.netcom.com/~abraxas2/astro.htm ), and it looks like a lowball estimate would be about a mile he traveled, he would've gone a few thousand times the speed of light. Why again would your freight train argument be relevant, since they'd be in deep space before Hulk even realized what was going on? The best you could argue is Hulk's stuck in space.
Hell, I just countered your argument without even going into the fact that CIS is off, and you've got NOTHING to prove Hulk could hope to counter these examples.
As for your scans, irrelevant. Konvikt's out of context(and doesn't count in this scenario). Pre-CRISIS Mongul was truly superior to Superman. I already proved New Earth Superman can kill WB Hulk and take what WB Hulk dishes out. Even if we ignore that CIS is off and you've got nothing to disprove Superman's capability of blitzing Hulk. If Spider-Man, Captain America and Wolverine are capable of avoiding Hulk's blows with relative ease and attacking before he can counter, then of course Superman, who's speed puts all of theirs to shame, can beat the shit out of Hulk before he was even aware he was being attacked. You could only argue he wouldn't fight like that, if we ignore CIS is off. Nothing you say can change that he has that capability. Nor would any "victory" here change that Superman is way, way stronger than Wonder Woman. Which is probably the core of your hate.
KMC Community Forums
Aug 15th, 2012 08:46 AM
@bluewaterrider
So I can't be aggressive either? 
