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Is cyclops a good leader/tactician
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-Pr-
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I don't agree, tbh.

And no, he's not a dirtbag.

At least he wasn't until Fraction and Kyle/Yost came along.


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Last edited by -Pr- on Jul 21st, 2012 at 03:52 AM

Old Post Jul 21st, 2012 03:49 AM
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I-Drop
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He's either the 1st or 2nd best leader in comics.


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Old Post Jul 21st, 2012 05:07 AM
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Darth Jello
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
Darth. Stop it now. Just stop. Take it from me, trying to convince Cyclops fanboys that their guy is a dirtbag is like trying to teach Zen to a bunch of monkeys. You won't succeed and you will get frustrated.


He all I said was he had a good character arc of fall and redemption and that his impressive leadership and tactical skills are hampered by his personal life's disastrous interference with his professional.


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Old Post Jul 21st, 2012 05:44 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Jello
He all I said was he had a good character arc of fall and redemption and that his impressive leadership and tactical skills are hampered by his personal life's disastrous interference with his professional.


And you'd be right.


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Old Post Jul 21st, 2012 06:14 AM
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dyajeep
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
"Leader" and "tactician" are really seperate skills and don't necessarily go together.


Leader:
I think it's unfair to compare Scott to cosmic-level characters and gods, so we'll just keep it restricted to Earth.

Ignoring what happens when you put Cyclops in a room with a hot telepath unsupervised, and focus ONLY on his performance during combat and team interaction, he is in the top ten but not the top five leaders. Cap, Fury, Doom, Magneto and T'challa command more respect and loyalty in my opinion. Keep in mind that three of these men have ruled their own countries, the collection of M day survivors Scott leads is simply not as impressive in comparison.


* mind you, one of your list just kneeled in front of Scott with utter submission, and as of today, he is still on Scott's side...

* what happens when you put Cyclops in a room with a hot telepath unsupervised? do you realize that telepaths are attracted to Scott, and not the other way around?

* as much as i hate to use Namor's argument, but being a "leader" and being a "ruler" are also two different things... Namor acknowledges and respects Scott's leadership, but he says Scott's "rulership" sucks...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
Tactician:
This is my comfort zone. I have been studying real-life tacticians and strategists all my life.

Once again, Cyclops in in the top ten, but can't crack the top five. Given equal strength forces and battle conditions, I think Cap, Fury, Doom, Sage and Mentac, The Living Computer (look him up!) could beat him. Reed Richards could beat Scott if he had proper time to plan, and Cable could beat him if there was no time to plan and all decisions would have to be made on the fly during combat. There is also the Gamesmaster, but I won't count him since he might all well be cosmic. Smart Alec deserves honorable mention as well, but can't handle the pressure of combat. He'd smash Scott at a game of chess though.

I know it seems like I'm bashing, but I'm really not trying to. The company Cyclops is in regarding leadership and tactics is quite impressive.


* in the "Origins of the Marvel Universe" graphic novel, Steve Rogers said on his files that Scott is a charismatic, powerful and effective leader, and strategic and tactical genius...

* Nick Fury's files says Scott is a natural born leader and a master strategist, the less time he has to hink, the better...

* he was the first one who taught Cable basic (to advanced) survival skills (when he was talking to Hope in Negative Zone)...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth


p.s.
Darth. Stop it now. Just stop. Take it from me, trying to convince Cyclops fanboys that their guy is a dirtbag is like trying to teach Zen to a bunch of monkeys. You won't succeed and you will get frustrated.


* another one of your anti-Cyclops rant? thanks for admitting you're not succeeding and you're frustrated... btw, defending Scott is not being a fanboy... we're not arguing that Scott can beat Thanos, are we?

Old Post Jul 23rd, 2012 03:23 AM
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mastagambit
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Scott Summers is a damn good leader. Been an X-Man since the age of 15. I think he is a great tactician and it might have to do with his genes. His father was leader of the Starammers,his brother Havok is a leader,his son Cable was a leader and great tactician too.


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Old Post Jul 24th, 2012 02:38 PM
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Sabretooth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't agree, tbh.

And no, he's not a dirtbag.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by peejayd
* mind you, one of your list just kneeled in front of Scott with utter submission, and as of today, he is still on Scott's side...

Cyclops followed the lead of Professor X for years. I guess that makes Charles a better leader by your logic. You know, I think you're right. I now consider Professor X a better leader than Scott, so he's also on my list. Scott still can't crack my top five.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by peejayd
* do you realize that telepaths are attracted to Scott, and not the other way around?

So you're saying he wasn't attracted to Jean, Betsy, OR Emma??!?

So does that make him gay or dead?

Usually you make at least somewhat valid points. Ima forget about this one and give you a chance the read what you typed again without the ruby lens glasses on.

Scott needs to have at least some accountability for his personal life. He's a grown-ass man, makes his own decisions, and needs to own up to the consequences of his actions without making excuses. I'm pretty sure he'll just keep sulking through life, waiting for hairy, industructible mutants to tell him what a dirtbag he is, so he can blast them through windows though...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by peejayd
* as much as i hate to use Namor's argument, but being a "leader" and being a "ruler" are also two different things... Namor acknowledges and respects Scott's leadership, but he says Scott's "rulership" sucks...

Agreed. Storm is a better ruler than Scott, but she's not on the list because he's a better leader. I still say everybody else I named commands more loyalty and respect.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by peejayd
* in the "Origins of the Marvel Universe" graphic novel, Steve Rogers said on his files that Scott is a charismatic, powerful and effective leader, and strategic and tactical genius...

* Nick Fury's files says Scott is a natural born leader and a master strategist, the less time he has to hink, the better...

* he was the first one who taught Cable basic (to advanced) survival skills (when he was talking to Hope in Negative Zone)...

And what do you think Scott's files say about Cap and Fury?

As for Cable, I agree. he got his start in the art of warfare from one of the best. Somebody also was Bruce Lee's first teacher. It doesn't make him better than Bruce, just the first to teach him.

I'll also add the Punisher to the list of people who can out-think Scott tactically as long as the fight is one on one.

Seriously people. He's NOT Marvel's answer to Batman. That statment sounds just as stupid as saying Wolverine can take Thanos.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by peejayd
* another one of your anti-Cyclops rant? thanks for admitting you're not succeeding and you're frustrated... btw, defending Scott is not being a fanboy... we're not arguing that Scott can beat Thanos, are we?

I love it when fanboys try and justify their fanboyism to me.

Seriously people. He's NOT Marvel's answer to Batman. That statment sounds just as stupid as saying Wolverine can take Thanos.

By the way, how's that trying to convince the public that Marvel's most popular hero ever really sucks going for you peejayd? Still haven't succeeded huh? Well, keep trying. Everybody but you has got to be wrong one of these days...


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 04:10 AM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
So you're saying he wasn't attracted to Jean, Betsy, OR Emma??!?


he was attracted to all three. is it any coincidence, though, that all three women were the aggressors in trying to start something? jean came on to him. betsy came on to him. emma came on to him. he reacted. scott has, for years, been naturally attractive to telepathic women.

quote:
Scott needs to have at least some accountability for his personal life.


he has done. more than once.

and logan is in no position to talk down to scott, tbh.

quote:
Agreed. Storm is a better ruler than Scott, but she's not on the list because he's a better leader. I still say everybody else I named commands more loyalty and respect.


scott was never meant to be a ruler. that was supposed to be charles' job. scott is, or at least was before their character assassination, doing a decent job of it imo.

quote:
By the way, how's that trying to convince the public that Marvel's most popular hero ever really sucks going for you peejayd? Still haven't succeeded huh? Well, keep trying. Everybody but you has got to be wrong one of these days...


popularity is only a measuring stick of that: popularity. just because something is popular doesn't make it superior.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 04:25 AM
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Sabretooth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr- logan is in no position to talk down to scott, tbh.

True that. He's probably the only X-Man that is a bigger man-whore than Scott.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr- scott was never meant to be a ruler. that was supposed to be charles' job. scott is, or at least was before their character assassination, doing a decent job of it imo.

Maybe Marvel should make Storm the ruler and Scott the true power behind the throne.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr- popularity is only a measuring stick of that: popularity. just because something is popular doesn't make it superior.

That statment was a response to peejayd's anti-Cyclops rant accusation. I was just basically saying people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

For the record, I'm no Wolverine fanboy. Far from. I like the character, but I can admit he's not the best a everything he does.

Sabretooth is. The best at everything he does. Everything.

Maybe someday we'll find something Sabretooth isn't the best at. And if that day ever comes, I'll be the first to admit it.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 04:51 AM
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Bouboumaster
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Reed Richards school him as a leader too.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:11 AM
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KingD19
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth




Maybe someday we'll find something Sabretooth isn't the best at. And if that day ever comes, I'll be the first to admit it. [/B]


Beating Omega Red. cool

Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:16 AM
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Sabretooth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Reed Richards school him as a leader too.


I thought about him, but I don't think Reed would have any hope of getting the "gruff loner" that is Wolverine to play team ball. Point Scott.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:20 AM
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-Pr-
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Imo scott is arguably the best tactican and strategist in Marvel. As far as being a "leader", that's something else.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:25 AM
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KingD19
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There are few who can make a plan come together like Cyke.

Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:28 AM
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Sabretooth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Imo scott is arguably the best tactican and strategist in Marvel. As far as being a "leader", that's something else.

If you REALLY want to open up the "All of Marvel" box, I have to say that's a pretty strong statment. I don't think Scott would have any chance against Loki, Warlock, Thanos or just about any cosmic level characters who have minds that work in ways Scott could barely comprehend with his mortal mind. We're talking about Universal Forces and GODS here. Characters that have the wisdom and experience of eons. Think about it.


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Last edited by Sabretooth on Jul 25th, 2012 at 05:35 AM

Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:32 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
If you REALLY want to open up the "All of Marvel" box, I have to say that's a pretty strong statment. I don't think Scott would have any chance against Loki, Warlock, Thanos or just about any cosmic level characters who have minds that work in ways Scott could barely comprehend with his mortal mind. We're talking about Universal Forces and GODS here. Characters that have the wisdom and experience of eons. Think about it.


scott has raw talent though. i mean, you can have plenty of knowledge and experience, but being able to think strategically is something that is very hard to learn at all, never mind learn well.

Look at the kind of people who have deferred to Scott's leadership in the past; it's a long list.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:39 AM
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Sabretooth
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The same can be said of any of the talented strategists as well. No way Scott figures out a way to get the Infinity Gauntlet off Thanos' hand. Warlock was all over that.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:43 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
The same can be said of any of the talented strategists as well. No way Scott figures out a way to get the Infinity Gauntlet off Thanos' hand. Warlock was all over that.


i don't agree, tbh. Cyclops has shown an unusual ability to feint and double feint his opponents, and has shown an unerring ability to have plans to suit any situation.

He just tends to lack the firepower within himself or his team. Look at Kuurth, for example.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:50 AM
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Bouboumaster
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sabretooth
I thought about him, but I don't think Reed would have any hope of getting the "gruff loner" that is Wolverine to play team ball. Point Scott.


Reed don't need Wolverine.
He can build gun that puncture celestials.
... And he's the longuest running leader around.

Point Richards


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 05:53 AM
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KingD19
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Reed don't need Wolverine.
He can build gun that puncture celestials.
... And he's the longuest running leader around.

Point Richards


Being smart doesn't make him a leader. It makes him a genius. And just because he's led a four man team this long doesn't make him a great leader.

Old Post Jul 25th, 2012 06:02 AM
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