Magnus the Red (Warhammer 40,000) vs. Luke Skywalker (Star Wars EU)
Come at me bro.
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Location: Coruscant
Magnus the Red and his Thousand Sons legion have invaded Coruscant, and the fate of the planet hinges on the result of his battle with Luke in single combat, which Magnus has forbidden friend or foe from interfering in with.
The most powerful psyker short of the God Emperor in history and Primarch of the Thousand Sons Legion versus the greatest Jedi to ever live and current Grandmaster in the order, at peak.
For shits in giggles, in the first fight it will be Magnus when he was "merely" a Primarch, and the second it will be Magnus as Tzeentch's greatest Daemon Prince.
Who wins?
I can provide evidence for Magnus's power if necessary.
Both characters have displayed retarded powers on such an abstract scale that there is no concrete comparisons to be made. Luke has shown the ability to resist the gravitational pull of blackholes, move so fast that he can turn invisible to the eye of trained force users and look like he has 20 hands holding twenty lightsabers when dueling, travel through time, turn planets invisible, etc.
Magnus has similar retardo-feats.
Similarly, they've both been reduced to doing stupid shit. Magnus getting the shit beaten out of him while fighting Bjorn and the other elite wulves, Luke having a poorly written wrestling match with an abstract being. etc.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Luke was only stated by the narrative to be unable to be moved by the supermassive black hole in the center of the galaxy, which is sort of, you know, narrative hyperbole.
Your face is a retardo feat.
Magnus's power was channeled into an avatar in Battle of the Fang, and by the time the Wolves could make a counter-attack on him, his power was fading from the host, nearly transparent.
The massive amounts of damage he was sustaining wasn't helping. He had to expend energy to keep his solid form...solid, because the Wulves were tearing it apart.
All daemons have to use avatars when they're outside of the warp. If this is Magnus as he exists in the warp, then Luke loses. Daemons can't be killed within the warp.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Because Luke doesn't telekinetically throw solar systems at his opponents. If Luke can do what the narrative described, telekinetically tossing a hundred solar systems would be a trivial feat in comparison.
No they don't, lol.
Angron didn't have an avatar, he was summoned whole.
It is possible to summon daemons without putting them inside a vessel.
Since when is CIS a valid argument? Is the Flash not FTL because his storylines don't end in a single page? Is Batman incapable of killing the joker because he never does?
"Throwing solar systems around" would be completely antithetical to a pacifist pussy who values life over all else like Luke. It's pretty much just a in-universe joke that Luke holds back the majority of the time.
By "avatar" I assumed you simply meant "solid form".
My point is that within the materum Daemon bodies aren't intangible/immortal and their powers aren't unlimited, like they are in the warp. They bleed, lose limbs, etc. They just have an insane amount of regen.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Well Luke has moved miniature black holes before and he resisted teh force push of Raynar Thul who, at the time, was backed up by the force power of billions and potentially even trillions of beings.
I would actually give Luke Skywalker the edge in telekinetic feats, while Magnus has never not been able to move something telekinetically, he doesn't have as many nor as impressive showings.
Magnus might have the age in telepathy though. In Aurelian, Lorgar ( one of Magnus's brothers) telepathically toyed with the Greater Daemon possessing Fulgrim, and could have destroyed it at any time. This is the same Daemon who could telepathically control the planet Laer's population as its slaves. Lorgar later tries to telepathically take on Magnus, who is on the other side of the galaxy and is expending a considerable amount of his power to create a psychic avatar on Lorgar's ship. Lorgar does well for a time when Magnus tried to placate him, not looking for a confrontation, but the moment Magnus has enough he telepathically dominates Lorgar, making his nose bleed, making his legs give way, and used so much power that paintings in Lorgar's chamber combusted, and statues shattered.
Yeah I'm not sure that Luke is Magnus' equal in terms of telepathy. Lukes greatest TP feat was communicating with all the Jedi in the galaxy at once and that exhausted him.
He's fast enough that Leia could hardly see him when he was fighting Palpatine, Palpatine himself being fast enough to speed blitz 3 of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, at one point made 'a curtain of hard light with his blade' and theres this image where he's deflecting bolts so fast his blade doesn't even seem to move, although that might just be crappy art. He was able to move fast enough so that a supernaturally fast opponent (he called her 'impossibly fast' at the start of the fight) was moving in slow motion and he's deflected blaster bolts from two stormtroopers firing only milliseconds apart.
He's also able to fly and fight at near-relativistic speeds in his X-Wing and speed up is perceptions enough that the TIE fighters are noticably slower.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Aug 30th, 2012 at 06:46 PM
Hmm, there was a psyker, discussed in the 6e rulebook, who was capable of telepathically controlling the populations of some ridiculous thing like a hundred systems, but I am unsure if I want to powerscale Magnus off of that, since that could just be inconsistent 40k goofiness.
Quantifying Primarch speed is hard, but Space Marines, and even lesser mortals, have deflected sprays of bolter, lasgun, or autogun fire with swords and shit, Eisenhorn is a very solid bullet-timer, Argel Tal jumped in the way of a spray of bolter fire and blocked three bolts with his swords, Lucius routinely ducks, bobs, and weaves around projectile fire in the middle of a battlezone, and all are slower than Primarchs. There are examples of Marines, one of whom being previously mentioned Argel Tal, being unable to so much as perceive the movements of Marines. Rogal Dorn cleared the distance of a room and punched a Marine in the chest, shattering his ribs, without the Marine even perceiving the movement. When Lorgar rushed Roboute Guilliman and knocked him down, 200,000+ Marines were unable to even perceive the action, Argel Tal being one among them. And IIRC Ahzek Ahriman couldn't actually physically perceive much of Magnus's and Leman Russ's fight (He perceived their psychic auras). Also, in one of the Blood Angels novels, through some psychic relic, a Marine actually gains the perceptions and speed of a Primarch (Sanguinius in this case), bolter fire and las-bolts appear nigh-frozen in mid-air and shit.
However, it's hard to really quantify all of this, since we simply don't know how fast bolter rounds or las-bolts travel. It is confirmed that bolts travel faster than sound, but that's it.
Whoa, don't normal humans pilot those things? How does that work?
Magnus IIRC hasn't slowed his perception, but he can alter the flow of time, slowing or even halting it, which might be his biggest advantage over Luke.
I wouldn't be surprised if 40K was full of that kind of goofiness tbh. The verse is so absurdly over the top.
That's all pretty fast. I'd be careful about going into intricate feat wars though. Also Luke will have an edge in that he has precognition, so he can react before Magnus attacks.
I have no fvcking idea. I was only barely aware that they moved that fast until I read this guys thread.
From the Respect thread:
'In this example, Luke views TIE Fighters that are flying at sublight speeds that move them at sizable fractions of light speed in slow motion.
Luke reached out. The Force was here, as it was everywhere, and it was no harder to touch deep in space than it was in the swamps on Dagobah. He let it fill him. The TIE fighters suddenly seemed to be moving slower. Luke’s hands flew over the controls; he moved the stick with sharp and precise movements. Swung to his starboard and lit the lasers, double-tapped the fire button.
Lines of fire lanced out and shattered one, two of the four TIE fighters. The explosion spat a hard spray of wreckage at him as Luke looped away. Shards of the destroyed TIEs sleeted against the X-wing’s transparisteel canopy, a meal and plastic hail.
--Taken from Shadows of the Empire
"I've got it—I'm gonna make it! I'm gonna—" He was interrupted by the final flip of his X-wing, which brought his nose into line with the sight of the leading edge of the spherical debris field expanding toward him at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, and Hobbie Klivian, acknowledged master of both profanity and obscenity, human and otherwise, not to mention casual vulgarities from a dozen species and hundreds of star systems, found he had nothing to say except, "Aw, nuts."
Some X-Wings were lost to friendly fire, as they were traveling too fast for the Slash-E gunners—or even their own superb reflexes—to react as they swept through the quad turrets’ fields of fire. Some were lost to simple collisions, flying at near-relativistic speeds through very, very crowded space.
--Taken from Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor'
The dude is wrong in that it never says he perceives them in slow motion, just that they're 'moving slower'. But the second quote does seem to support that X-Wings really move that fast.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Aug 30th, 2012 at 07:21 PM
The point is that your argument is a non-sequtier, dingbat. You're literally trying to say that Luke can't do Action Y even though the narrative states that he can because he hasn't, not can't, hasn't, performed action X. That's a fallacy. I don't need to provide feats because the onus is on you since you made the claim, so if you want to prove that Luke being unmovable by the black hole at the center of the galaxy is hyperbole than you'd have to provide empirical evidence that performing such a feat is beyond his displayed limits.
Whore.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Wasn't he unable to stop Abeloth from destroying a town with a volcano Blax?
So is your mother.
Ah... Magnus also has precognition, lol. He can peer into the future moments or even years away, he literally wrote the book on using clairvoyance both in combat and in the long term, making the Corvidae Cult which specialises in it.
Magnus's schtick in the Thousand Sons is that, while all of his sons and the vast majority of psykers tend to have one specialised form of psychic power they excel at beyond others (Corvidae are masters of clairvoyance, telekines masters of telekinesis, pyrae masters of pyromancy, etc.), Magnus excelled at everything.
But then how the **** do normal human pilots pilot them in combat?
I should also mention Magnus the Red's power output.
In A Thousand Sons, while fighting Leman Russ, through force of will he creates a powerful psychic storm (Possibly a legitimate Warp Storm) that is tearing apart the surface of Prospero.
To be honest I don't actually think Luke can beat him. He's seems too strong, durable, fast and powerful. I don't see Luke beating him with the Force and I don't see him beating him with his lightsaber either.
Aug 30th, 2012 04:58 AM
