Can you give an example of this "less force"? Because the cutscene quite clearly disagree with you on this. But anyway,
That's all we needed, thanks.
He still stops Gorons and tosses Blizzeta, both feats are far superior to the car feat. Do you disagree with this statement?
It was calced, and I took a look at the math. Seemed to check out for what it was.
Russel stopped one braking car, wouldn't common sense tell us he can't do that all the time, too? It's not like it's the only durability feat, either, since Link is fired out of at least 3 different cannons without harm.
You're the one arguing against cutscenes with gameplay. Link draws his sword and incinerates Russell.
Hold up. You just said that Russ' limb ripping strength was enough to harm Link because of what hurts him in game. So now that Gorons are unable to harm him, what you said means nothing?
Punching through stone means Gorons are stronger than Russell's head tearing feat.
Did a quick google search: Coleman class can bench >700lbs and punch with <700lbs of force. Tyson class can bench <500lbs area and punch in the 1,500lbs force area. So roughly Coleman can lift over 1.5x more, Tyson can punch just over 2x harder.
Still the same strength area, and by that I mean that neither can produce a staggering amount of force more than the other. If Coleman's bench-punch was 3,000lbs-500lbs and Tyson's was 200lbs-6,000lbs then an argument can be made in this superhuman thread.
Now compare that to my previous examples;
1. An 11 year old boxer with a [200lb punch] vs a 30 year old pro weightlifter [700lb bench]
2. A pro human boxer [1,500lb punch] vs a guy that can lift a car over his head and throw it through a wall [5,000lb bench]
The weightlifters above can hit harder than the boxers because they are much, much stronger. Far more than Coleman vs Tyson. And this is the range that matches this thread. A guy that punches heads off vs a guy that throws around huge weights around.
I literally have no idea what you'r talking about, nor know how its relevant to the thread. Feats > portrayals. The only person that knows how the character was meant to be portrayed are the creators. Unless you have a statement, you don't know how they are meant to be portrayed
"Skyward Sword Link, who's weaker than Twilight Princess Link, was able to plow/rush through a hundred Boblings (stronger than humans) and wasn't even out of breath by the end of it."
Link easily defeating a hundred beasts = portrayed to be able to 'plow through' foes.
"Russell beats vampires that are weaker than him"
Okay, Russell can beat vampires? 1. So what? 2. Who ever said that he can't beat them?
My turn; Link is overpowering Gorons who have strength feats of demolishing stone and throwing each other around. Link is stronger than any other Goron and can survive hits from them, just because he doesn't have their strength feats we know he's well beyond them in strength. That's called portrayal.
Mhm.
Link does't rip the head off his beloved horse, so he can't? Thats not an argument. You don't go around ripping the legs off baby birds, does this mean you're a weak human? You're going on about how Link's portrayed and then expect him to brutally kill his own horse? Theres a dozen feats that say Link's superhuman, you've even admitted that he is. You've giving no reason that the rest of us can't say "Russell/Bill isn't superhuman, he's just strong enough"
Can you actually prove that Link doesn't have the strength to dispose of any of his enemies?
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Yes, he can muster up all his strength but his strength isn't portrayed as greater than his foes can deal with putting them at a huge disadvantage like you claim.
I don't think it matters but Russell is portrayed as far superior strength portrayal. Link isn't. Link needs help taking control of a horse while Russell shrugs his shoulders and tosses a vampire 30 feet into the air with ease.
Doesn't matter we look at portrayal.
Link can be hurt by less and Russell's strength is to the point he can slap Link's head off considering the weak enemies who can hurt him.
Russell's too fast for him to draw his sword. Show Russell being immediately incinerated.
Link can be hurt by enemy Gorons just let the boss attack you and tell me if Link can die.
Portrayals trump feats. Always. Feats help but sometimes nerds such as yourself try to hype the feats while ignoring the portrayal and how he stood up to his peers/enemies throughout the game.
The point is lifting strength doesn't always trump punching strength. Russell has both while Link's strength never ripped an enemy in half or what not. The feats the high ones don't match up to his portrayal which means you aren't telling the whole picture or story of Link. I am.
Skyward Link isn't relevant here.
Link needs to muster up his strength to overpower the horse if it was so easy he wouldn't need to try. That's the point his strength doesn't carry over into his portrayal from his feats.
Link has a sword and weapons Russell disposes of many enemies with his strength and overpowers them while Link doesn't.
Not canon. The hierarchy goes something like this, though I cut it down slightly:
-Cutscenes
-Required gameplay
-Normal gameplay
See, "any enemy in the game" is the lowest canon, falling under "normal gameplay," and is in fact non-canon since Link remained uninjured during his quest except where noted in-story. Even were this not so, the King Bulblin feat and the cannon feats both occupy the "cutscene" rung and therefore override the lower canon. Things like Dangoro occupy the "required gameplay" rung, as the game cannot be completed unless you toss him. It is very possible to complete the game without be hit by an enemy, so it isn't considered a requirement nor is it part of the story.
Basically, all of that boils down to "nope, doesn't count."
Bulblin knocking Link out = cutscene, and thus canon.
Bulblin hitting Link, dealing damage = gameplay, non-canon
Is that suitably understandable?
Dangoro couldn't deal with it. Blizzeta couldn't deal with it. Ganondorf couldn't deal with it. Do you have some other reason to believe Link is weak, other than just ignoring that he has defeated foes through superior strength?
You're cherry picking feats, then? Link isn't going to use all of his strength to stop a horse, he would rather like it Epona survived the encounter. Take a look at any of Link other portrayals, like when he's portrayed as strong enough to lift and throw Dangoro, or he's portrayed as strong enough to throw Blizzeta. Or when he's portrayed as durable enough to be fired out of a cannon no less than three times without injury. (Link never needed help taking control of Epona, where did this come from?)
Link is clearly portrayed as being stronger than Russel. Throwing a vampire does not compare to throwing Blizzeta, and stopping a car does not compare to stopping Dangoro. Russell's portrayal simply does not compare to Link's.
I see your problem. You're still hung up on the gameplay, when the the cutscene and story of a game are the true canon. We're arguing two different Links here, is one way of looking at it. The difference is the gameplay you're talking about is not canon.
Russell's about a thousand years older than Godric, right? As I understand it, older vampires are weaker to the sun than younger ones are. Russell gets close, he's catching on fire.
1. Gameplay damage.
2. Replay those words in your head; Link only gets hurt by Goron's. Not killed, hurt.
Pulverising stone and knocking eachother around > tipping cars. If Goron's take.. 40 hits to kill Link if we're accepting your gameplay damage, then what chance does someone with Russ' strength have at harming Link, let alone in one move?
'doesn't always' but it does when the lifting strength is to such extreme levels above anothers punching strength. Tyson vs guy who can lift a tank, is basically the same as vamp that can punch heads off vs elf that can throw things weighing dozens of tons.
And what are you talking about? Link is portrayed as an individual that takes on legions of foes that are stronger than humans and overpowering foes that are much, much stronger. Also you didn't address two kind of important parts:
1. "Link is overpowering Gorons who have strength feats of demolishing stone and throwing each other around. Link is stronger than any other Goron and can survive hits from them, just because he doesn't have their strength feats we know he's well beyond them in strength. That's called portrayal."
By altering your own sentence, it proves by your own merit that Link is portrayed to be superhuman.
2. "The only person that knows how the character was meant to be portrayed are the creators. Unless you have a statement, you don't know how they are meant to be portrayed"
I take it you have some facts to prove that Link is canonly portrayed to be what you say he is? IIRC in another thread Scenario posted a vid of the creator admitting that Link has unnatural level of strength.
Theres character portrayal and there's personal interpretation. Unless you can prove the former, you're speaking the latter. Opinions and speculation are not fact.
I just watched the clip and there's no 'mustering up strength' at all. Also how do you think animals work? The whole point of that scene was to calm Epona down, not physically restrain her. If Link wanted to stop her in the way you say he should have, don't you think he'd try the same method on her that he does on the stronger, heavier Goron's?
Fantastic, bringing up how Russell does it. Now how about you prove what I've asked?;
"Can you actually prove that Link doesn't have the strength to dispose of any of his enemies?"
Prove the above with canon evidence, so without using some player dependant, non-canon gameplay examples. For instance, show me a scene where Link fails to pass the peak human benchmark.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
It's all canon so I don't care what you think is a higher form of canon. Link can be hurt by far less than Russell Edgington nor is he portrayed as some bullet proof badass like the linkers would have me believe.
Link overcame them through formidability not because he's so strong they can't compete with him. You're asking me to forget his skill and the fact he has an arsenal of weapons he brings to his fights.
Link wasn't trying to kill the horse but he still isn't strong enough to easily subdue it but someone like Russell is. Russell can easily stop cars while Link needs the proper technique to stop a goat.
Russell slaps peoples heads off. Link doesn't. Link can't. My arguments are based off facts yours are based off of nerd speculation.
It is all canon. That's the thing but to say he tanked an axe and to then falsely say he's immune to axes is living in a fantasy.
That's the actual sun though unlike Link's sword. Prove it's the same potency and it would have the same effect.
A goron can kill him. The canon gameplay assures he doesn't die not that he's invulnerable to their attacks.
Play the game far less can hurt Link. Link can't punch people's heads off and can't dominate his peers with his strength. Russell can and Russell can dominate strong vampires with ease. Link can't.
Link is superhuman but not to the level of Russell. Russell's portrayed as stronger and faster to the point of absurdity. Russell can easily rip through bodies whereas Link has never once done so. You need an example of Link doing so to make a valid claim not some abc nerd logic.
Russell easily stopped the car while Link doesn't easily stop the goat. Russell could easily overpower the horse without so much as even straining himself unlike Link. Link is strong when he needs to be but isn't portrayed as super strong against his peers. Russell clearly is.
Link uses a sword and lifts he never destroys an enemy with his hands alone. Russell does so easily.
You thinking I have a fixation on you is misguided. I merely wish for you to leave, as we don't need people that fail such as you here.
Also, it's not a made up number. I read the thread. Everything you've posted (the very few things) have been refuted. Yet you post them again. Provide no evidence. Refuse to post videos with feats. Blatantly lie. Yeah, you lost pages ago. You just won't admit that your fanboyism of Edgington is misplaced.
Never responded to their battle teleporter arguments. All you said was, "Nu uh, Russell is faster"
Tbh, I am actually just trying to give the others a break from your bs. Not honestly trying. So go ahead and tell yourself you're better. Nobody would likely agree.
Hmmm. Nah. It's not all canon, is the part I think you missed. The cutscenes are canon, the gameplay mechanics are not. However, let's try this your way:
Now, if we're to take your argument seriously, this clip shows Link taking a sword to the back from Ganondorf and then standing back up. A normal person would be cut in half, but Link can still fight and isn't even bleeding. Based on that, there is no possible way Russel can one-shot him. In fact, under this gameplay argument, and assuming Russell can deal half-a-heart of damage (same as Ganon's sword) it would take Russell no less than 48 hits to kill Link. Link only needs to hit Russell once, and even drawing the Master Sword will kill Russell with its light. Oh wait, I forgot the fairies. Make that 'Russell needs to hit Link no less than 192 times at full strength in order to kill him.'
See, this is why you don't want to argue gameplay. Your argument is making Link stronger, not weaker. I would prefer we use the canon version, so Russell might actually stand a chance.
Formidibility? That sounds like something you made up, to be perfectly honest. I'm not asking you to forget Link's skill or his weapons, I'm asking you to acknowledge his superior strength in addition to those things. He overpowered Dangoro, Blizzeta, and Ganondorf. This remains true. He uses weapons and skill. This is also true.
Do you think Russell could subdue a horse without killing it? Really, your point with Epona changes absolutely nothing when Link is stopping charging Gorons and tossing icebergs.
Okay. Link hits Russell, and Russell explodes into purple smoke. That's what Link does to his enemies, it's what he'll do to Russell. Or, we can actually use our brains to determine that if a sword hits Russell, he'll get cut.
It isn't all canon. I never even said he's immune to axes. The cutscene shows him to be unharmed by an axe blow, it's fine to conclude that kind of attack isn't going to work.
Check a few pages back, we've already had this discussion. A Sol is a Twili sun, and the Master Sword is powered by 2 of them. We seen in game that this light makes the corrupt Twili explode and then purifies them.
Russell would slap his head off and has superior strength than Dorf. Russell is also much faster and has responded mid blitz to other vampires before. Dorf has just blitzed someone once who stood there like a dummy. The next attack defeated slow silly Dorf.
Link can survive attacks from weaker characters in zelda verse but not the death dealer who is known as Russell. The guy is far above bullet time strength and can stop cars easily despite not needing an anchor the boots provide.
Link's strength has never been too much for his foes just enough to win through either a combo of strength and skill with his sword usually.
Yes, I believe so. Russell stopped a car without destroying it or killing those inside.
Russell slaps his head off. Link doesn't have the reactionary reflexes to be able to compete.
The canon shows he shrugged off that axe not that he's immune to axes. That's the point. If you let the enemy hit you he will die proving he isn't immune at all.
Link's already dead and we don't know what kind of an effect the twili sun would have on Russell.
Are you going to respond to the points I made? What you're doing now is just saying the same thing over and over regardless of my words. So, here it is again:
Link, by your gameplay argument, has survived getting stabbed and slashed by swords, blown up by bombs, crushed by boulders and icebergs, electrocuted, set on fire, frozen, and attacked by chickens. Russell is not slapping his head off. He's just not strong enough to do more than a half-heart of damage. Are you sure you want to keep using gameplay?
And Ganondorf still blitzed, what happened after is irrelevant.
Gorons have better strength feats than Russell, and Gameplay Link takes their punches with next to no damage. Morpheel break a whole lot more than Russell, as does Zant. Link takes hits that shatter stone, Russell's strength is worthless next to that.
Still want to use gameplay?
Honest question, have you played Twilight Princess? I listed several bosses that Link's strength was too much for (Dangoro, Blizzeta, Ganon, and I'll add Argorok) that have yet to address. You just repeated the skill point, which still changes nothing when Link is more skilled than Russell.
Cars have airbags, and several feet of car between Russell and the passengers. Horses don't. Plus, that car was braking, and going much slower than Epona can run.
Russell doesn't have the strength or the skill to do so. Link's already proven to have enough reaction time to draw his sword.
He can actually take like 7-28 more hits from it in gameplay. I never said Link was immune, just that he resisted in cutscene, which is supported by the canon feats. Why do you refuse to accept canon?
Russell cannot kill Link before he's on fire. This has been proven time and again, Russell is simply not strong enough to meaningfully harm Link, since Link has survived much worse. The Twilight sun is stated to be like the real one, and even has anti-evil properties of its own. If vampires don't like the sun, they will hate the sol.
It seems to me that those debate comics are the ones that most often have difficulty in translating over the mechanics of video game fiction discussion.
I'm not exactly sure what this arises from.
The talk of 'averages' in comics is a big thing, because of variable nature of the medium being more inconsistent than any other due to the big two (DC, Marvel) being companies that have told stories for many years and went through many different writers and editors.
The same is not the case with games usually. Where things tend to start--and actually do END in one smooth progression with one creative team--not unlike books, just with more people involved.
Maybe its this 'average' seeking mind set that leads us to where we are. Games are often scant on explicit feats, so maybe gameplay mechanics are looked into to fill the gap to get some sort of consensus on 'average', but that's not really how it works. If a character's only explicit feat in some attribute is through a single cutscene--then that's pretty much all they get. Unless there's other derivable tiers of canon involved that can give them things (Scenario touched on this already).
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Last edited by CosmicComet on Oct 2nd, 2012 at 03:25 AM
No, here's the point. The damage in the video game isn't a clean shot but just illustrates what can hurt him. The hearts are a gameplay mechanic. They don't mean he can survive in a forum battle until you wade through his energy.
Dorf bum rushed one confused opponent. He stood there and was defeated right after. He hasn't blitzed again meanwhile Russell has reacted to a blitz showing his superiority in speed while Dorf hasn't.
Gorons aren't anywhere near as fast as Russell. Russell's peer by peer comparison destroys Bill Compton yet his feats are superior since he's been in more eps. Feats are a weak way to debate. Always have been and always will be.
Russell's strength overpowers his opponents while Link's does not. Link is strong enough to win out but he isn't superior to a single opponent based off of strength. Russell has yet to find an equal in strength.
Link isn't as fast as Russell. Link isn't in the same universe in terms of speed so who cares ? Link dies before he even knows what hits him. Link's quick but not a blur like Russell is who is above bullet timers.
So now corraling a horse is more impressive than palming a car ? What is possible and what is not ? Get real and ask yourself what is possible in reality and what isn't. This whole Link did it so pretend it's better shtick is old.
Russell's reaction time is far greater. Link isn't anywhere near bullet time. You don't have a clue with regards to anything here nor do you care. You want to argue Link wins no matter what. A fanboy marches in to a thread without any knowledge of the opponent supremely confident his guy wins because he's a fanboy. That's the definition of a fanboy.
I do accept he can survive an axe shot but I don't accept he is immune to axe shots either. I am logical you aren't.
Russell's above bullet time speed is far greater than Link. End of story. Link's been knocked down and hurt by far less and isn't portrayed as stronger than his foes in the games.
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Sep 16th, 2012 04:05 AM
