Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
At what point did I say I looked at the covenant as a prize box? My problem with the covenants isn't the reward at the end, it's the terrible, awful, painful journey to get there with a lot of them. And yes, I did set out with intention to complete content put in the game by the developers to be completed. I'm a completionist by nature, I set out to get the job done.
And yes, DS2's PVP is bad. Coupled with the much worse covenants the multiplayer overall was pretty blegh. Even when I was being cooperative the people who summoned me seemed to have the reflexes of a comatose ox with Lou Gehrig's disease.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
I just explained to you exactly how you said it was.
AGAIN, though, the purpose isn't to get to the final "reward." That's only a portion of why a covenant is in place within these games.
Yes, and sometimes, things take longer to complete than others. It's obvious they didn't want covenants to be viewed as a process that takes a few hours. It's exactly how it sounds. It's there to enhance gameplay, not give you Targray's goddamn armor.
Oh, okay. So the PvP structure is bad because you got summoned by people who aren't good at the game? What in the HOLY Christ does this have to do with the PvP mechanic itself? Seriously, what a horrendous criticism.
Sunbros are indeed easy mode compared to possibly every other covenant. Progressing through the Sunbro covenant is simple and has rewards that actually make sense for the covenant.
Whereas Bloodbros get a big fireball at the end. Lol.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
You may want to work on your reading comprehension a bit. If you're going to reply to my points it helps to reply to the point I'm making. /Pat pat
Again, the reward isn't the issue I'm discussing, it's the entire implementation of the covenants in this game being shit. It's that content that the devs put in for you to experience is so bad that it makes the game as a whole feel worse. The game would have legitimately have been better if it hadn't teased us with pvp and invading as both core and unavoidable, than with the Brotherhood of Blood and Blue Sentinels in the state they're in.
The PvP Structure is bad because the PvP Structure is bad. Being summoned by retards is annoying, not necessarily the game's fault, but annoying. Also that's co-op.
The PvP structure is bad because it works off of soul memory, the hitboxes are terrible, balance is completely borked, and because this festering pile of fail is integral to the game. It's not just a tacked on multiplayer mode you can ignore.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
The "there" being the "end" or the final reward, which isn't the primary purpose of covenants in this game.
Oh, and...
This is you, after shouting, "lulz, covenunts r shit!11" You've done nothing but mention rewards, you noob. Everything else has been vague crap that acts more like call-out insurance than it does actual points.
A beautiful snippet and a summarized example of how you shouldn't debate. Ever.
"LOL, PVP is bad because I joined a dude who was a noob and cuz, erm, it's bad."
- ScreamPaste, 2014.
My reading comprehension? Kid, you cannot even keep up with what you're saying, let alone what I am.
You missed the boat, like you have before. It's not a big deal anyway. I don't tend to deal in pedantry.
Well, firstly, it comes off as more diverse and the roles of each covenant are more finely defined. Also, finding pals is generally easier (especially with co-op covies) and the CoC is a cool addition.
In DS1, the PG, WoS, and WoW basically fill the same role. DS1 covies have features that I generally found "better" than DS2 but, overall, DS2's covenant system is more organized, along with what I mentioned prior.
__________________
"Evil will hold."
Last edited by The Gravelord on Jul 6th, 2014 at 07:52 AM
"I worded my post badly so I'm gonna pretend he read it wrong" lol. Also, why did you cut out parts of Scream's post, right after you whined about me doing the same to you?
Know what though, after looking at the covenants and realizing I'm defending Scream, I'm gonna change my stance. Most of the covenants are fine in DS2.
Not the Bloodbro covenant though. It's terrible.
Blue Sentinels aren't much better. They are better though. If only because being a Bloodbro is pain and suffering.
Covenant rewards are generally not as good as DS1's (And the way you level up in CoC is awful), but the covenants themselves are indeed more varied.
Firstly, I didn't word it badly. My follow-up sentence that you eliminate in your quote clears the vagueness of the former statement explicitly.
So, we're the same now? It's different. He actually didn't outline any specific criticisms, if you look back. He legit just mentioned the rewards and the rest was, "Covies are bad just cuz." Hell, he OPENLY did this with his PvP argument by saying PvP is bad "because it's bad." He's actually the worst person I've ever talked to.
You schizophrenic fucking sucker of dog dicks.
Fair enough. I get that. I'd agree some rewards aren't as good. For example, I preferred actually turning into a dragonoid rather than the "armor" you get. Love the weapons + shield, though.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
YARLY.
Oh, look, you did it again. One second, let me get some flash cards for you.
(please log in to view the image)
B is for Beginning, every journey has one.
(please log in to view the image)
M is for middle, and how far you've come.
(please log in to view the image)
E is for end, when your work is done.
The covenants are a shit pile all the way through. From the second you join one all the way to the moment you stop playing. Yes, if I'm on a road I'll get to the end, but that's not why the covenants are bad. I understand that you can't actually respond to my points, but pretending I didn't make them and focusing on some make believe land where I'm mad about getting a fireball instead of badass armour isn't gonna fix that, k?
So, to reiterate:
-PvP is broken
-PvP is forced on you
-Several covenants revolve around PvP
-These covenants require a LOT of PvP
The single player is fine but by trying to make multiplayer integral they've put a blemish on their own game to such an extent I couldn't be arsed to keep playing the thing.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Last edited by ScreamPaste on Jul 6th, 2014 at 08:27 AM
Well I mean, he mentioned the terrible hitboxes in PVP (There are some in PVE but it isn't as bad), the bad PvP balance (I personally disagree on the supremacy of mages but that is neither here nor there) or soul memory (Eh...). I probably would have focused more on those were I him though.
You'd best calm down man.
Really, the Bloodbros are so insanely terrible largely because, well, you don't just have to kill 500 guys in duel mode to get to the highest rank. That alone is a bit excessive compared to how incredibly easy it is to get to the final Sunbro rank (And I should mention the Sunbros also get easily the better reward, huehuehue), but Jesus, you have to do it more or less consecutively. A loss in the arena brings you back a step. That's incredibly tedious.
But then I personally don't really feel any need to complete every covenant entirely. In fact I've only done it for the Sunbros, Company of Champions, and Pilgrims of the Dark so far (I may make a dragonbro later, dunno). So whatever flaws the covenant system may have didn't really stop me from plugging 300 hours into the game.
Yeah, he did. I was talking about his argument regarding covenants. Also, even in the aspect of his PVP critique, it was legit, "PvP hitboxes are bad."
I'd agree that they can be, not that they intrinsically are. Even so, ScreamPenis didn't elaborate on anything. Seriously.
stfu
I get that it can be arduous in some covenants to get final rank and basic as fuck in others but I don't think that's all there is to covies. I mean, sure, getting to the "end" is great but it's not even the end. It's just a rank. It's like leveling in CoD, for example. You get to level 60 but it's not your primary purpose to get to the last level and how hard it is becomes largely irrelevant.
Covies are legit about the journey. Regardless, I think the PotD is the weakest covenant. It legit could have been replaced with a ring or some other super sacred abyss-traversing item of gaudiness. Beside that, I think the remaining covenants aren't too shabby. I'm glad some of them come off as daunting.
These give them more impact, for me. This "too long" crap ScreamPenis rambles on about feels like a really weak criticism. This game is meant to be explored, abused, and enjoyed, on equal measures.
Making the final covie prizes leagues away from reach ensured that the covenant's purpose was redefined. It made it more of an experience-based endeavor, rather than, "LOL k, im here for teh dragun powerz and some ringz lulululu."
- Saying it over and over again don't make it true.
- No, it's not. There are several ways to avoid PvP.
- That's not really an issue. There are four other covenants to join.
- Yeah, for the "final prize." Again, who cares? If you join a PvP-oriented covenant, you probably want to PvP.
Good for you and how lame you are. That doesn't make it a blemish. If you didn't personally enjoy it, fine. Don't allow that garbage to taint a fantastic game.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
You're right, it's not true because I'm saying it over and over, I'm saying it over and over because it's true.
-The game does the worst job of accounting for lag I've seen since playing Alien Swarm with my graphic's card on fire. (This actually happened) That alone makes PvP a pain. It wasn't like this in DS1.
-The hitboxes are absurd and hilarious. A full sword length away from that running stab? Still damaged. Other side of the map from that great sword? Still damaged. It's made worse by only applying to some moves in a set instead of all of them, because the inconsistency makes it hard to know how far each attack reaches.
-Balance is nonexistent and if you're not playing a magic user you're doing it wrong.
-Matching people by total soul memory is a terrible idea that can only result in mismatched fights because not everyone dies the same amount.
It very much is forced on you, and this is one of the selling points that got me to buy the game on release, the fact that disconnecting when you're invaded is punished now. My excitement and joy at that news... Was short lived once I realized PvP was complete ass now.
Invasions are garbage now, and no covenant gives you an eye orb, just one time use cracked ones, forcing you to duel or do other garbage to invade players.
If you join a PvP covenant you are indeed likely to have been an enthusiast for kicking the crap out of other players, but the game hard gates your ability to do that, and the PvP is so heinously bad that you lose your interest in this core aspect of the game.
Oh, look, more final prize talk. Do I have to get the flash cards again little guy? It's great because you went on to acknowledge covenants as a journey just like I pointed out later, look at this:
B is for beginning, M is for middle, E is for end. I don't start walking to visit a friend and then say **** it, this journey's been enough and then ditch them. What you're doing here is rationalizing covenants being terrible in such a way that lets you try to ignore the valid criticism of the system.
Sucking the game's dick won't make PvP good.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Last edited by ScreamPaste on Jul 6th, 2014 at 03:59 PM
You're just coming off as wholly biased, at this point. DS1 had the same online PVP problems but, like it's successor, it was not due to the core design itself.
This happens, but not a whole lot. You act like PvP is bad merely because this happens. This isn't a common occurrence for myself or anyone I really know.
They had problems like this in DS1 as well, with someone being in front of you and then, bam, they're behind you backstabbing you. This is a problem in CoD when you get the jump on someone and your bullets don't register. This is a problem in FIFA when you go to cross but it doesn't happen in a timely matter because it's laggy.
Do you get where I'm going with this? This is not a hitbox problem. It's a problem every game faces and it's the application and handling of lag/framerate issues. Every game has it and it does not mean that the game is intrinsically designed poorly.
I don't agree. At all. The playing field is relatively level, in terms of PVP balance. Havelmages are tough to deal with and Santier's spear wielding shitheads are troublesome but these people get downed constantly. There's a volley of videos online of these people getting tuned up. Hell, even renounced MLG players or people considered "experts" falling to the everyday casual DS2er (such a thing exists), which implies a relatively intact balance for combat.
I don't agree. This is a decent way because it's experience based. It's about what you've gotten in this game. I think the matching innovation is a solid one.
It isn't. It's not forced on you. Playing offline is a very realistic option. You can even burn human effigies to ward off that interaction. It creates another dynamic of difficulty, if you choose to play online. It places a wager between co-op and invasion. It's interesting and a compelling addition to the game's fundamental difficulty. It's hardly forced.
What's with this "forced" crap? The first game "forced" (using your apparent definition) to do plenty, when it came to PvP. It was arguably too easy to avoid invasion. The name "invasion" had no weight in the first game. All you had to do was remain undead and you were safe from it. That wasn't a great choice, to be honest.
I'll love how the game is so forceful but there's choices. You're like, "Oh, it forces you to duel or do other stuff." It gives you options. You're undoing your point a bit here, ScreamPenis.
YOU lost interest. Many still PvP and enjoy the new system. Heinously bad? I don't even know why I bother interacting with you. You're melodramatic and most of your points lack genuine substance for why the PVP itself is bad. Just surface complaints that aren't all that fantastic.
I already dragged up quotes of you openly yammering on about the prizes. You still haven't brought up anything decent regarding the covenant system.
Also, that's because going to your friends is goal-oriented. That analogy would have looked better, had you applied it to the game's story progression, such as the "friend" being the end boss and giving up halfway through, therefore not completing the game.
The covenant is like that social group you attend that gives you a gift certificate for being a member for two months. Yeah, the certificate is nice but you're not there for that.
See? Even your analogy implies that the covenant system is based around that reward. You implied the covenant is a journey and the end bears the fruit. A-FUCKING-GAIN, that is not how it works. How do you manage to deny this the paragraph right before you go and directly imply you believe it again?
LOL @ valid criticism (Um, the prizes are hard to get, even though they're not the point of covenants)
You're a mess.
__________________
"Evil will hold."
Last edited by The Gravelord on Jul 6th, 2014 at 09:12 PM
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Good job supporting that point you made, some solid gold 'debating' here.
Location: Kiln of the First Flame
DS1 had the problem to a significantly lesser degree. People teleport backstabbing were few and far between, it was nearly every other fight with DS2, and that's leaving out the nonsensical way lag interacts with spells and projectiles, making them much, much harder to deal with than they otherwise would be.
No, this plagues entire weapon sets. It's not a 'glitch that happens sometimes", the hitboxes are completely out of tune with the animations.
PvP is bad because this, like a myriad of other aspects of PvP is a constant thorn in your side when you're wading through the cesspool that is this game's PvP system.
(please log in to view the image)
This is not a sign of balance, it's a sign that either A. skill isn't all that important to become a "renounced" MLG player OR that skill can be overcome with the right build.
GJ.
Good thing a random amount of that experience never added anything to your character!
"This game with the touted multiplayers? You know, the one that lets you invade other players to make the game harder? I think I'll play that offline because the multiplayer is complete ass. This in no way makes the game not 10/10 amazing."
-The Renegade
PvP was fun in the first game.
That 'other stuff' is garbage. "I like PvP so I'mma ... Go get a token of fidelity via co-op... To ... Duel... So I can finally invade... Once..." It's a pile of needless steps added that make the system a cluster**** without adding any additional fun or depth to the experience. It's clutter.
Yes, yes I did, because the PvP was terrible.
Even for someone determinedly trying to quote mine me you've done a poor job of this.
Covenants are supposed to add to your experience, all they do is pad gameplay length, without adding anything to your experience, and they are tedious, and largely revolve around PvP, which is terrible in DS2.
I challenge you to level anything resembling a criticism at the game, it seems like it'd be hard to do with so much of From Software's dick in your mouth.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Yeah, but then I went and did it. You not liking it doesn't mean it didn't occur. I'm so sorry, dude.
Bonus points for not even refuting that you're biased. Also, how does that make me biased? I've openly said DS2 is a better game before. If I was biased, I don't think I'd be able to make that statement. Are you implying it is otherwise because my avatar/sig combo is Gwyn-themed? You'll have to do better.
Nope, it didn't. It happened quite a lot. It didn't outweigh the times it did not occur but it's the same with DS2. Not for me, it wasn't "every other fight." I simply didn't have this problem. The "nonsensical" way? Again, this is a connectivity issue, not one related to the structure of PVP intrinsically. All games, even the greats, can suffer from this. My friends and I have RARELY had problems with that kind of lag.
Yeah, we've had a few fights were we swung three feet away and hit a guy but that's due to us getting teamed up with someone who was either far away or had a bad connection. This isn't a testament to the PVP at all.
It is, though. I've rarely had this problem. The hitboxes are acceptable during optimal PVP and even PVE. The hitboxes aren't suddenly bad because they react abysmally under stressed connectivity or lagging. A lot of decent things act badly under lag.
No, it was a thorn in your side. You don't get to say the PVP is bad because of lag and anecdotes. I'm sorry but you need more. It's your responsibility to provide definable evidence for your critique.
The "right build?" Haha, nah, dude. These people are using their own builds and, even then, if definable builds can reasonably clash against other ones? It promotes balance, not imbalance.
How does it not add depth? Certain covenants alter the gameplay experience heartily. You're just trivially explaining the process and that's not a fair criticism. Why is it needless? How do they not add depth? One adds a new area, one makes the game more difficult, one enables you to protect an area (like the Forest Hunter covie from DS1), one is there to help noobs from getting smashed, etc.
How do these not add depth? They condensed the system from DS1 and actually managed to make it more efficient.
Nah, I haven't been quote mining. Sorry, homie. You can talk when you haven't replaced half of your rebuttals with shitty pictures or ignored most of my arguments, like when I called out your analogy as ousting the covies as reward based and you completely ignored it.
They did add to the experience. Even my least favorite one gave you access to an entirely new set of areas and a boss.
They are tedious only if you're viewing them as prize boxes. This is my problem with you. You CONTINUE to deny that the "prize box" argument isn't the bread and butter of your covenant critique but it is. It's only tedious if you're in it solely for the items.
No, it doesn't "largely" revolve around PVP the split is practically even. Five covenants are PVP covenants and four of them are PVE-oriented. That's not "largely," it's fucking one more.
For perspective, DS1 had the same count. Five were PVP (BotD, DW, FH, PotD, GLS) and four were PVE/Co-op (PG, WoS, WoW, and CS). Even then, three of those covenants, as I mentioned, could have functionally been combined (PG, WoS, and WoW). Seriously, WoW is legit PG/WoS, except you don't get miracles. It's poorly categorized, yet DS2 gets shit for making this model more efficient and retaining the same amount of covenants?
It's crap. Sequels always tend to get the volley of unreasonable shit, as seen here.
I have plenty but I don't need to air all of them to match your horribly empty ones. You claim I'm biased but you've based that on:
A) My location on my profile.
B) The fact that I'm addressing your shoddy criticism.
^ Not substantial enough to enforce your claim. Not even remotely.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
You did what, exactly? Straight faced lied about problems the game has? I pointed out problems which exist, whether you want to acknowedge them, or not, and you did nothing except deny that they do.
And what bias exactly are you accusing me of? I bias toward good games? Because I most certainly do have that.
Lol. "I'll plug my ears and deny this game has problems, also, I'm not even a little biased, disregard the Gwyn set"
This game does a horrible job accounting for lag, as I said in my post. I'll even quote myself for you:
Lagging in DS2 is a terrible, terrible experience, most likely devised by Lewis Carroll. Other games do not suffer from it nearly so much, and handle it much better when your connection is similarly slow.
Even it's predecessor was better at handling lag.
"10/10, game. No flaws, the hitboxes are fine, seriously!"
The hitboxes are in no way acceptable, I like how you go on to try and pin this on lag:
The hitboxes act badly in offline mode, lag just makes them even worse.
I do get to say it's bad because it's bad, though, and it is.
You're bad at reading.
If randoms are beating MLG players why is the MLG player an MLG player? What's he doing there? If he cannot consistently beat randoms? All his loss proves is that gear build > skill.
Other than CoC and the Rat Covenenat I can't think of any that do this in meaningful ways.
It doesn't add depth because you're just doing bullshit to do other bullshit, it's a skinner box, where if you run on the wheel for a while the game lets you have a little fun, but the fun isn't even fun, so you're basically running on the wheel until it dispenses a dried out food pellet made of hamster shit.
You're bad at reading.
te·di·ous
ˈtēdēəs
adjective
too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.
"a tedious journey"
synonyms: boring, dull, monotonous, repetitive, unrelieved, unvaried, uneventful
The covenants. Tedious.
So you're saying it's more than half.
So you don't have the heart to sling a stone at this game you love so much. Thought not.
Also, you replying in multipage posts to my criticisms of the game while wearing a Dark Souls set and pretending the game is perfect is plenty of signal that you're biased. Lol.
I didn't even initiate this, actually. I pointed out the bad PvP and you got offended and immediately tried to discount my post! It was adorable.
Criticize the game, I dare you. I promise it'll still be on your Steam account afterward.
__________________
The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
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Jul 6th, 2014 06:54 AM
