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Visual "Solidity" -- Who are the all time best artists at portraying this?
Started by: bluewaterrider

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abhilegend
Reborn

Gender: Male
Location: Fortress of Solitude

Kirby got his superman re-drawn to look more like Curt Swan's superman whenever he drew him except in Super Powers which IMO is a phucking crime. RIP King.


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2013 05:13 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

Kirby

His classic "gut punch" always looked like it hurt


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Old Post Jan 25th, 2013 03:12 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Kirby's getting a lot of love here; in another moment I'll probably post a bonus image for fans to appreciate.

If we're specifically talking gut punches, though ...

Well, I don't actually remember seeing any from Kirby.
Intead, IMMEDIATELY coming to mind the moment you said that is the following, from another classic illustrator, John Romita, Sr.

Attachment: 10 romita versus kirby. sequences versus separate panels.jpg
This has been downloaded 48 time(s).

Old Post Jan 26th, 2013 03:54 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Looking at that previous submission, I'm minded now to do a bit of research on "negative space". I don't really know what it is I now realize -- I cannot, for instance, tell if those white shock and impact lines are an example of it. If they are, what does "positive space" look like? Does "negative space" refer to anything that isn't "really" there and is just added for effect, or does it deal specifically with shadow?
Maybe some other similarly limited technical concept?
Was Kirby really doing anything other artists were not if that wasn't the case?

Right now I'm noticing perspective and hand size, though.
Hallmark of Kirby, hallmark of Romita when drawing "Kirby" like characters.

The former I promised to showcase another work for; this time I'll choose a selection that is one step removed from direct fighter versus fighter contact. Note the prominence of the hands, the effect they have on the environment, the way they shape even what is hard and straight and metallic into "bendy" organic curves (talking about the fire hydrant) and how the oversized hands are actually the focal point of most panels, as opposed to the faces of the characters, which is where you'd normally expect attention to be directed.

Attachment: 20 organic metal. hulk hydrant shoot. fantastic four #26.jpg
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Old Post Jan 26th, 2013 04:10 PM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

This is something that I always felt Alex Ross was very bad at, personally.

Those who are good at it? Ivan Reis is solid, as is Ed Benes imo.


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Old Post Jan 26th, 2013 04:12 PM
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bluewaterrider
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I'm looking over my collection of classic Spider-Man adventures and wondering why John Romita's name did not come to mind before now.

I'm realizing that part of the reason is that Romita's art wows more because of perspective and sequence than the sort of hyper "concrete" single panels that sparked this thread.

What I mean by "sequence" is that actions are given weight by AFTEReffects, that is, what is shown in the panels that follow a given action.

Now that I come to it again, this might be why I appreciate Spider-Man comics more than almost any other. The stories "feel" more real because actions "matter" more, are easier in general to relate to.
Because you're not dealing with an invulnerable or even particularly high level character. The Supermen and Thors and Hulks of the world can bounce around heedless of whatever they crash into or whatever crashes into them. Spider-Man is not like that. Actions have effect on him.

Case in point that gut punch from the Kingpin posted yesterday.

Effective enough on its own, certainly effective when enlarged and showcased bigger than it size in the comics for display on computer,
the image is cemented in the actual story by what Romita follows up with:

Attachment: 30 romita secret ... showing aftereffects.jpg
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Old Post Jan 27th, 2013 08:56 PM
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bluewaterrider
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.

Attachment: 40 amazing spiderman51v1. john romita sr. wallgrab isolate.jpg
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Old Post Jan 27th, 2013 08:57 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Two ways, again.

Romita's use of an arc line to trace Kingpin's swing ("action" line) and the
white impact space give the viewer a shock, the following panel bores the reality in: Spidey is nearly folded after taking it.
He's retreated from active fighting and is supporting himself by leaning against the wall.
He's even seeing stars.
That punch hurt!

Pete's a fairly good and tough fighter himself; in the panel that follows he has shaken off enough damage to flip to safety ...

... almost. The very next panel after THAT has Kingpin already firmly gripping his ankles, ready to pull him off the wall. He thinks to himself how Kingpin is much faster than he realized.

Is that it? Or is it that, still being dazed from the effects of that folding haymaker, his reaction time is still a tad slower than normal?

It's ambiguous; either interpretation has support, but the scene illustrates how well the SERIES of artwork panels by Romita is what lends the full weight to any particular thing he draws.

Or maybe, just maybe, given that nearly EVERYTHING Romita draws is well-crafted, nothing usually stands out in isolation from anything else.

Anyway, that's John Romita, Sr.

Old Post Jan 27th, 2013 09:12 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
This is something that I always felt Alex Ross was very bad at, personally.

Those who are good at it? Ivan Reis is solid, as is Ed Benes imo.



I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here, P.R., as in the post preceding yours the discussion was on how Kirby worked his magic by focusing disproportionately on the hands of his powerful characters.

Alex Ross, if he's the same person I'm thinking of, is known for watercolor and paint hyper-realism. By definition he's not going to exaggerate anatomy; he's going to depict it as accurately as possible.
He faces a very different set of challenges than the average comic artist.

I'll have to look up Ivan Reis. I can't think of anything I know of that he's done save for that promotional DC banner a year or two ago.
Think it was a slogan like "Holding the line at $2.99!" or some such? A promise to maintain price controls.
(DC has kept their word on that to a far greater extent than I thought they would, incidentally.)

I'll back you up directly on Ed Benes. At least on 1 showing.
My favorite Maxim elements-muted edition of you-know-who going against Amazo as the attachment to this post.

I'm considering, again, artists depicting literal hand-to-hand struggles probably have an advantage in making mention or getting showcased here over those that don't.

I'll search my "Many Happy Returns" collection for a shot that has no grappling that still communicates if time permits ...

Attachment: 100 justice league of america 24_ shoving match.jpg
This has been downloaded 50 time(s).

Last edited by bluewaterrider on Jan 27th, 2013 at 09:50 PM

Old Post Jan 27th, 2013 09:42 PM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

I was speaking about the thread in general.

When Alex Ross paints, as beautiful as they are, I don't feel like there's much life or motion in his shots. When he paints, say, Superman throwing a punch, it looks like he painted a picture of someone that was standing in a punching pose, rather than actually throwing one.

Ivan Reis has worked on Action Comics, Green Lantern, the latest Aquaman series, and is now the current artist on Justice League.

Here's an example of Reis:

(please log in to view the image)

I'll post some of Benes in a bit.


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Old Post Jan 27th, 2013 09:53 PM
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Mindship
Snap out of it.

Gender: Male
Location: Supersurfing

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not quite sure I fully understand the concept of "negative space" as you and the Wikipedia writers are using the term.
Using negative space involves reversing figure and ground (the goblet is a good example). With Kirby Dots (or Kirby Krackle, as it sometimes called), the idea is to use the dots -- initially figure -- to the extent where the distinction between figure and ground become blurred. At some point, the space left over by the abundance of dots becomes the figure and the dot mass becomes ground. If done correctly, the eye vascillates between the two (the brain can't decide which is figure and which is ground), and this dynamism adds to the energy of the drawing. Many artists don't achieve this: dots remain as figures, seldom transitioning into ground.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Kirby got his superman re-drawn to look more like Curt Swan's superman whenever he drew him except in Super Powers which IMO is a phucking crime. RIP King.
Could've been worse: it could've been Wayne Boring's thick-waisted, short-thighed, big-eared Superman.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
This is something that I always felt Alex Ross was very bad at, personally.
Agreed. As you mention in a later post, even his action shots look posed. I do like his Wonder Woman, though. Not dainty; by looks alone not someone I'd wanna mess with.


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2013 04:00 PM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

She looks tough, but I always felt she wasn't beautiful enough to be Diana. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc...


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2013 04:04 PM
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Mindship
Snap out of it.

Gender: Male
Location: Supersurfing

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
She looks tough, but I always felt she wasn't beautiful enough to be Diana.
She does look a bit "butchy", true, or at best, approaching a Plain Jane. It's a toughie getting that right balance between strength and beauty. Still, I'd submit.


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Old Post Jan 28th, 2013 04:38 PM
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One Big Mob
All will be revealed

Gender: Unspecified
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I've always liked Ron Lim's battles.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/2.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/3.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/5.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...98801810qn8.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...98801813nr0.jpg

Andrea DiVito though is amazing at this. Every blast just envelops the opponent. Every punch hits with force.
Look at the fights in Stormbreaker, Annihilation, the Ragnarok arc, and when Heatclops burned WWH for example.


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Last edited by One Big Mob on Jan 29th, 2013 at 12:36 AM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 12:31 AM
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-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Ireland.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
She does look a bit "butchy", true, or at best, approaching a Plain Jane. It's a toughie getting that right balance between strength and beauty. Still, I'd submit.


laughing out loud

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I've always liked Ron Lim's battles.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/2.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/3.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...Betweener/5.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...98801813nr0.jpg

Andrea DiVito though is amazing at this. Every blast just envelops the opponent. Every punch hits with force.
Look at the fights in Stormbreaker, Annihilation, the Ragnarok arc, and when Heatclops burned WWH for example.


yeah, the art in that wwh mini was the only thing that got me through it.


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably."

Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 12:34 AM
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bluewaterrider
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(URL version.)


The following 6 entries are more or less the current leaders.

I sometimes cruise through KMC without being logged in.

Done that way, all the attachments become links that open up in separate tabs. Taking these entries in order and cycling through the tabs using the "ctrl"+"tab" emphasizes several of the points covered before.

For instance, the screen capture of Camille playfully showing off to her fans reinforces how Kirby is able to communicate strength and dominance, not by having his Gravi Guard actually striking and knocking Superman out, but by merely having Gravi make a fist in panel 1, and show that fist and solid forearm at Superman's throat in panel 2.

And it's possible to experiment and reveal other things that would go unnoticed with tabbed browsing. For instance, switching the order of Diana versus Amazo and having it PRECEDE Kara versus Silver Banshee, reveals that Wonder Woman is drawn more "straight up" or vertically than Kara is. Cycle quickly through the entire series of six in the following order: She Hulk to GraviGuard to Camille to Spider-man to Wonder Woman to Supergirl and back to this page and then on through the series once again. You will find Wonder Woman's near-vertical standing position makes her stand out like a sore thumb.

Switch the series back to the way I show at the beginning of this post, however.
You get no such jarring impression.
For near-vertical Wonder Woman versus Amazo, gives way to completely vertical She-Hulk jumping down onto that wooden signpost Haller is holding and smashing it, which the artist in the next panel of that same scan smoothly transitions into Haller grabbing She-Hulk to go on and bearhug her in the scan that follows THAT one.

Which subtly but amazingly illustrates that each of these 6 artists achieved at least some of their realism by always having their figures in heavily curved and/or "tilted" positions. Almost never is anyone standing straight up. Can you see this?
If you go through the "tabbed browsing" exercise I suggested, switching the places of Diana and Kara, you will.

Anyway it's fascinating to see what comparing these to each other in different media (computer graphics versus their original comic page representation) reveals about the techniques the masters used ...








1. Mike Vosburg. Man-Elephant (Manfred Haller of Haller Hydraulics) versus Jen Walters

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14163300
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14163301

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Savage She Hulk #17, Volume 1
Writer: David Anthony Kraft
Date: June 1981
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Savage_She-Hulk_Vol_1_17



2. Jack Kirby and Al Plastino. GraviG versus Superman

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14163404

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Forever People #1, Volume 1
Writer: Jack Kirby
Inker: Vince Colletta
Date: March 1971
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Forever_People_Vol_1_1



3. Camille Burford. Camille Ford Flexing

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14165495



4. John Romita, Sr. Parker versus Fisk, Round 1.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14168440

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Story Title: "In the Clutches of The Kingpin!"
Source: Amazing Spider-Man #51, Volume 1
Writer: Stan Lee
Date: August 1967
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_51



5. Jamal Igle. Kara Zor-el versus Silver Banshee, Shea Stadium

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14164287

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Supergirl #34, Volume 5
Writer: Sterling Gates
Date: December 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_34



6. Ed Benes. Wonder Woman versus Amazo, JLA Building

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice League of America #24, Volume 2
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Date: October 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_League_of_America_Vol_2_24

Last edited by bluewaterrider on Jan 29th, 2013 at 03:53 PM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 03:45 PM
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bluewaterrider
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

(Click-able link version.)


The following 6 entries are more or less the current leaders.

I sometimes cruise through KMC without being logged in.

Done that way, all the attachments become links that open up in separate tabs. Taking these entries in order and cycling through the tabs using the "ctrl"+"tab" emphasizes several of the points covered before.

For instance, the screen capture of Camille playfully showing off to her fans reinforces how Kirby is able to communicate strength and dominance, not by having his Gravi Guard actually striking and knocking Superman out, but by merely having Gravi make a fist in panel 1, and show that fist and solid forearm at Superman's throat in panel 2.

And it's possible to experiment and reveal other things that would go unnoticed with tabbed browsing. For instance, switching the order of Diana versus Amazo and having it PRECEDE Kara versus Silver Banshee, reveals that Wonder Woman is drawn more "straight up" or vertically than Kara is. Cycle quickly through the entire series of six in the following order: She Hulk to GraviGuard to Camille to Spider-man to Wonder Woman to Supergirl and back to this page and then on through the series once again. You will find Wonder Woman's near-vertical standing position makes her stand out like a sore thumb.

Switch the series back to the way I show at the beginning of this post, however.
You get no such jarring impression.
For near-vertical Wonder Woman versus Amazo, gives way to completely vertical She-Hulk jumping down onto that wooden signpost Haller is holding and smashing it, which the artist in the next panel of that same scan smoothly transitions into Haller grabbing She-Hulk to go on and bearhug her in the scan that follows THAT one.

Which subtly but amazingly illustrates that each of these 6 artists achieved at least some of their realism by always having their figures in heavily curved and/or "tilted" positions. Almost never is anyone standing straight up. Can you see this?
If you go through the "tabbed browsing" exercise I suggested, switching the places of Diana and Kara, you will.

Anyway it's fascinating to see what comparing these to each other in different media (computer graphics versus their original comic page representation) reveals about the techniques the masters used ...








1. Mike Vosburg. Man-Elephant (Manfred Haller of Haller Hydraulics) versus Jen Walters

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14163300
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14163301

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Savage She Hulk #17, Volume 1
Writer: David Anthony Kraft
Date: June 1981
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Savage_She-Hulk_Vol_1_17



2. Jack Kirby and Al Plastino. GraviG versus Superman

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14163404

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Forever People #1, Volume 1
Writer: Jack Kirby
Inker: Vince Colletta
Date: March 1971
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Forever_People_Vol_1_1



3. Camille Burford. Camille Ford Flexing

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14165495



4. John Romita, Sr. Parker versus Fisk, Round 1.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14168440

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Story Title: "In the Clutches of The Kingpin!"
Source: Amazing Spider-Man #51, Volume 1
Writer: Stan Lee
Date: August 1967
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://marvel.wikia.com/Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_51



5. Jamal Igle. Kara Zor-el versus Silver Banshee, Shea Stadium

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14164287

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Supergirl #34, Volume 5
Writer: Sterling Gates
Date: December 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_Vol_5_34



6. Ed Benes. Wonder Woman versus Amazo, JLA Building

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=14168482

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice League of America #24, Volume 2
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Date: October 2008
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_Le...merica_Vol_2_24

Last edited by bluewaterrider on Jan 29th, 2013 at 03:54 PM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 03:46 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Came across the following this morning.

I get the feeling that I've posted it somewhere before now, but I cannot right now remember where.

Fits in with the overall theme of the thread as far as MY impressions go; not sure if it will do the same for others, which is part of the reason I'm posting it. Part of a miniature 3 scan series ...

Attachment: 10 mary jane. best scene. amazing spider-man 122.jpg
This has been downloaded 47 time(s).

Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 05:02 PM
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bluewaterrider
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The artist here is Gil Kane.

If the exchange seems out-of-character for Peter Parker here, note that this is Amazing Spider-Man #122, the issue where Pete's longtime romantic interest, the most serious one at this time was MURDERED by one of his deadliest enemies. This was something that seldom if ever happened in comics at the time and was quite revolutionary for its time.

At any rate, storywise, Pete was absolutely devasted by the loss.
He is angrily responding to the red-head lady in this scene because she has a reputation for being a party girl, go-go-girl all the time.
The lady was such a consummate character of this type that she could come off, perhaps even be, callous and cruel.

Superficial to this point if I remember right, but at a cross roads moment. Typical way of people like this in comics, protagonist makes a declaration: "I don't need or want people like you in my life, especially not now", and that person leaves.

And such must be what many, many facts expected ...

Attachment: 20 mary jane. best scene. amazing spider-man 122.jpg
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Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 05:11 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Not this time.

The Marvel writer chose to make this a moment of true resolve and true character growth.


No 70s story-standard cliche.
No party girl moving on to the next fun happening.
No character realizing "too late" that life requires confronting jugular issues when people you care about are hurting.

Mary Jane recognizes that Peter is in emotional pain, perhaps the greatest in his life, and that he is not saying what he means.

This is not the time for Mary Jane to take insult.
This is not the time for her to misunderstand.

Pete desperately needs a friend at this time, and that, ultimately, is what Mary Jane is.

Note how with ONE action sans dialogue the artist powerfully conveys that message:

Attachment: 30 mary jane. best scene. amazing spider-man 122 black.jpg
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).

Last edited by bluewaterrider on Jan 29th, 2013 at 05:48 PM

Old Post Jan 29th, 2013 05:45 PM
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