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Dormammu Vs Shuma-Gorath
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Marvel_Mystic
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ThereIsHope
Didnt Shuma beat celestials? Also Strange beats Dormmamu every other day of the week. Yet he had to go all out to defeat Shuma Gorath.


No. Perhaps according to Thanos Imperative Shuma should be one of the highest Many Angled Ones IF the four that Lord MarVell called during his ritual were indeed the most powerful. But even if that was the case I don't see how anything the Galactus Engine did against Celestials should have anything to do with Shuma even if Shuma did help empower it, and we dont even no that for sure.

Old Post Feb 6th, 2013 10:14 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ThereIsHope
Didnt Shuma beat celestials? Also Strange beats Dormmamu every other day of the week. Yet he had to go all out to defeat Shuma Gorath.

He did no such thing. He's never faced off against another God or Cosmic on panel that I'm aware of.

Strange fought Gorath 3 times that I can recall :
A) First time, he wasn't Sorcerer Supreme and he pwned all of Gorath's servants and was later forced to kill a dying AO to banish Gorath. It was AFTER the AO's death that Strange became SS and the AO gave his powers to Strange.
B) Second time they fought, Strange had destroyed (or thought he destroyed ALL his artifacts) this weakened the spells he cast keeping various demons out and allowed them to gain access to 616 reality. Even without his artifacts, he managed to humiliated servant after servant of Gorath, before finally humiliating Gorath himself.
C) Last time they fought, a non SS Strange beat Gorath by teleporting him, against his will I may add, to Stonehenge.

Gorath is phuckin' fail compared to Dormammu.

Dormammu has gone up against the likes of Eternity, Odin, Gaea, a cabal of Hell Lords that included Mephisto, and others I'm not recalling right now.


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Old Post Feb 6th, 2013 10:18 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Cort's trolling hard today.

Dormammu wins because he actually fights people and doesn't sit his ass in his dimension all day like Shuma.
Agreed on both

Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 01:02 AM
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Dormy sends Umar to do the job. Shuma is not worth his time. Oh, and Shuma sucks in case anyone forgot to mention it already.


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 01:06 AM
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Mr Master
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Good debate friends.

But this part of it has no argument.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop

Strange fought against the LT and held his own

Blasphemy!
quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether

LT was testing Strange the whole time to see if Earth was
actually worthy enough for him not to destroy it. And after Strange
broke out of that Rings of Raggador enchantment LT just cast it
again and Strange was immediately helpless.

He even says on panel that LT could simply nod his head and destroy the globe.

thumb up


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 01:13 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Blasphemy!


Yeah Zop went all out with that one. smile
LT had just one shot Zom whom Doc was having trouble with. There's no way Doc can hang with LT, even if one we're to take that fight seriously.


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 01:46 AM
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Robbie_Rotten
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
Strange with AO's power impressed the LT and the LT himself said so.

Strange sans ALL of his artifacts annihilated Gorath and his minions. Dance around this fact all you want Cort, it's not going away.


You're dancing around the fact that Strange already had imbued himself with enough black magic power that even if he did have those artifacts that were transported to Agamotto's realm after the fight with Urthona they wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference since he was already more powerful than he had ever been.

quote:
Yeah and? None of those no named beings you mentioned mean anything. We have no feats or fights to gauge their power by! The fact that Strange wtfpwned Arioch in like 8 panels says all we need to know about Arioch's power level. And it's not good.


It really just shows more about Strange's power and abilities. Notice that when Arioch states he has 'infinite power', Strange agrees that he cannot possibly stand up to it, so he resorts to fusing with him. Considering a peer of the Ancient One couldn't even make it to Arioch's realm without going comatose yet an Ancient One empowered Strange was hanging with Zom years earlier, I'd say it's at least clear that Arioch is superior to the Zom that was seen struggling to catch the agile Doc Strange. stick out tongue

quote:
Pulling out his forlock was the only way to beat him, since it would unleash evil energy and summon the LT. That was what the AO told Strange before merging with the stone pillar. Strange with AO's power did nothing to Zom. Zom, on the other hand, had Strange dead to rights until the LT arrived.


A young and inexperienced Doc Strange who wasn't even Sorcerer Supreme was holding his own against Zom after AO gave him his power. Why is that such a big deal to you? Good lord, Kaluu himself could have done similarly based on the showing of that encounter. Zom's not impressive in the least bit.

quote:
Strange has humiliated Gorath on at least 2 occasions. laughing


You exaggerate things. Strange getting manhandled and toyed with and having to resort to killing his mentor to BFR Shuma back to his dimension isn't exactly a humiliation for Shuma. Shuma would have killed Strange instantly had he not played with him. Then again, Dormammu's arrogance gets the best of him on multiple occasions and causes his defeats. And I really think you're reaching when you keep bringing up Shuma's appearance on Earth when he was starved "weak and hungry after long slumber". Sure Shuma-Gorath was fairly beaten when Strange fought him in his realm but to act like Strange merged with gods and boosted to levels far beyond his normal scope = Strange as normal or even SS is outright silly.


quote:
When did the Vishanti even fight Gorath?! And I'm not talking about ONE sentence. What were the circumstances of the fight.

You are basing your whole argument off ONE SENTENCE with no context behind it.


It's stated by Agamotto that they fought Shuma-Gorath before. Hoggoth backs him up by saying that they recall Shuma-Gorath well. And later Kaluu tells Strange that not even Agamotto had destroyed a lord of chaos. You can cry for context all you want, but it's clear that Shuma-Gorath is in the Vishanti's league otherwise the Vishanti wouldn't have said that they fought with him and Kaluu wouldn't have made such a big deal about Agamotto not even doing such a thing.

I typed this to you in a previous thread concerning S-G, but I'll type it again. When one reads a comic or watches a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader/viewer, the simplest interpretations are the ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can ask ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can throw into the equation random what-ifs coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other on panel or in bios, etc, Kaluu made a big deal about Strange being able to do what not even Agamotto could do." These are all conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach. If we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for perfectly decisive statements, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator in Marvel with an axe to grind. Clearly Shuma's within the Vishanti's league.

quote:
And as we've seen, Strange DIDN'T kill Gorath, because Gorath was going to be reborn through Strange. If Strange really did kill Gorath, we wouldn't have any subsequent appearances by him no? Some feat.


Strange prevented Shuma-Gorath from slaughtering Earth's populace as he did in prehistoric times by defeating him. That's what his goal was. Shattering Shuma's shell is no easy task. It's a great feat for Strange.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Cort's trolling hard today.

Dormammu wins because he actually fights people and doesn't sit his ass in his dimension all day like Shuma.


Trolling...me? It's not my fault that zop gets emotional whenever Shuma's name is mentioned on KMC.

And Dormammu is far more persistent than Shuma in attacking 616, sure. But being arrogant and more willing to get your ass kicked by higher powers doesn't impress me.


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 02:55 AM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether
You're dancing around the fact that Strange already had imbued himself with enough black magic power that even if he did have those artifacts that were transported to Agamotto's realm after the fight with Urthona they wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference since he was already more powerful than he had ever been.



It really just shows more about Strange's power and abilities. Notice that when Arioch states he has 'infinite power', Strange agrees that he cannot possibly stand up to it, so he resorts to fusing with him. Considering a peer of the Ancient One couldn't even make it to Arioch's realm without going comatose yet an Ancient One empowered Strange was hanging with Zom years earlier, I'd say it's at least clear that Arioch is superior to the Zom that was seen struggling to catch the agile Doc Strange. stick out tongue



A young and inexperienced Doc Strange who wasn't even Sorcerer Supreme was holding his own against Zom after AO gave him his power. Why is that such a big deal to you? Good lord, Kaluu himself could have done similarly based on the showing of that encounter. Zom's not impressive in the least bit.



You exaggerate things. Strange getting manhandled and toyed with and having to resort to killing his mentor to BFR Shuma back to his dimension isn't exactly a humiliation for Shuma. Shuma would have killed Strange instantly had he not played with him. Then again, Dormammu's arrogance gets the best of him on multiple occasions and causes his defeats. And I really think you're reaching when you keep bringing up Shuma's appearance on Earth when he was starved "weak and hungry after long slumber". Sure Shuma-Gorath was fairly beaten when Strange fought him in his realm but to act like Strange merged with gods and boosted to levels far beyond his normal scope = Strange as normal or even SS is outright silly.




It's stated by Agamotto that they fought Shuma-Gorath before. Hoggoth backs him up by saying that they recall Shuma-Gorath well. And later Kaluu tells Strange that not even Agamotto had destroyed a lord of chaos. You can cry for context all you want, but it's clear that Shuma-Gorath is in the Vishanti's league otherwise the Vishanti wouldn't have said that they fought with him and Kaluu wouldn't have made such a big deal about Agamotto not even doing such a thing.

I typed this to you in a previous thread concerning S-G, but I'll type it again. When one reads a comic or watches a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader/viewer, the simplest interpretations are the ones that really matter. In the case of Shuma-Gorath fighting the Vishanti, we can ask ourselves if the Vishanti really fought Shuma literally, or we can throw into the equation random what-ifs coming from our imaginations. Or, we could go ahead and apply the razor and say: "The Vishanti said that they fought Shuma-Gorath, both are still around, none was said to have defeated the other on panel or in bios, etc, Kaluu made a big deal about Strange being able to do what not even Agamotto could do." These are all conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach. If we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for perfectly decisive statements, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator in Marvel with an axe to grind. Clearly Shuma's within the Vishanti's league.



Strange prevented Shuma-Gorath from slaughtering Earth's populace as he did in prehistoric times by defeating him. That's what his goal was. Shattering Shuma's shell is no easy task. It's a great feat for Strange.



Trolling...me? It's not my fault that zop gets emotional whenever Shuma's name is mentioned on KMC.

And Dormammu is far more persistent than Shuma in attacking 616, sure. But being arrogant and more willing to get your ass kicked by higher powers doesn't impress me.

Yawn....

I could post scans saying how the Vishanti don't give two sh|ts about Gorath and Gorath himself said so to Dr. Strange (hint look up Marvel Premiere 6, 9, and 10). So you basing your entire argument off ONE SENTENCE with nothing on panel to back it up is laughable and pathetic.

But then again, Gorath is laughable and pathetic so it sort of fits.

Dr. Strange has handed Gorath his ass fight after fight after fight. On panel Gorath has ZERO fights against other demons or cosmics Dormammu or even Mephisto's level.

You base your entire arguments on one sentence and hyperbole. FAIL.


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 03:19 AM
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Robbie_Rotten
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
Yawn....

I could post scans saying how the Vishanti don't give two sh|ts about Gorath and Gorath himself said so to Dr. Strange (hint look up Marvel Premiere 6, 9, and 10). So you basing your entire argument off ONE SENTENCE with nothing on panel to back it up is laughable and pathetic.

But then again, Gorath is laughable and pathetic so it sort of fits.

Dr. Strange has handed Gorath his ass fight after fight after fight. On panel Gorath has ZERO fights against other demons or cosmics Dormammu or even Mephisto's level.

You base your entire arguments on one sentence and hyperbole. FAIL.


You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.

And I can see you're getting mad so...

Celebration dance!
(please log in to view the image)



And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2013 03:41 AM
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Marvel_Mystic
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether
Trolling...me? It's not my fault that zop gets emotional whenever Shuma's name is mentioned on KMC.


Like it's not his fault that you get overly defensive of a character that hasn't done anything.

quote:
You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.


As far as I remember they say that they just didn't care about Shuma and Shuma later tells Strange that the Vishanti no longer concern themselves with him. Where was it ever stated by the Vishanti that they wouldn't help him for fear of disrupting the cosmic balance?


quote:
And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.


I think everyone agrees that Fear Itself sucked hard.

Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 06:56 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether
You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.

And I can see you're getting mad so...

Celebration dance!
(please log in to view the image)



And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.

No one is getting mad. You don't anger me believe it or not. The point is Gorath is a character solely based on hyperbole.

Oh and another thing, you got proof that the snake demon was Set? Because there are A LOT of demons in Marvel that assume Serpent form. His two children, Damballah, etc.

The serpent demon in the pic had one head, Set's most recognizable feature are his SEVEN HEADS.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 07:03 PM
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Robbie_Rotten
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Like it's not his fault that you get overly defensive of a character that hasn't done anything.


roll eyes (sarcastic)


quote:
As far as I remember they say that they just didn't care about Shuma and Shuma later tells Strange that the Vishanti no longer concern themselves with him. Where was it ever stated by the Vishanti that they wouldn't help him for fear of disrupting the cosmic balance?


http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/...athvishanti.jpg

Agamotto: "It is Stephen Strange - - Disciple of our revered servant, the Ancient One! Still, we must deny his request for aid - - lest we upset the cosmic balance - - and open the door to chaos!"

Agamotto says this when they show up after Strange requests the Vishanti's help against Sligguth (the Ancient One's power that was assisting him had faded during the battle and he needed help to defeat Shuma's servant). The Vishanti were not concerning themselves with Shuma-Gorath because of the consequences of upsetting the cosmic balance. It's not that they thought 'oh Shuma's a nobody so we're just gonna ignore him' like zop wants you to believe.

quote:
I think everyone agrees that Fear Itself sucked hard.


It was dumb...like most of Marvel these days.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
Oh and another thing, you got proof that the snake demon was Set? Because there are A LOT of demons in Marvel that assume Serpent form. His two children, Damballah, etc.

The serpent demon in the pic had one head, Set's most recognizable feature are his SEVEN HEADS.


Whether it was really Set or not, it doesn't dismiss that the illustrator was including characters in the Devil's Advocacy that really had no place being there. Many forum goers believe it's Set, though. It doesn't matter to me if it was Set or not either way.


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Last edited by Robbie_Rotten on Feb 8th, 2013 at 08:31 PM

Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 08:27 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether
It was dumb...like most of Marvel these days.

+1 thumb up


quote:
Whether it was really Set or not, it doesn't dismiss that the illustrator was including characters in the Devil's Advocacy that really had no place being there. Many forum goers believe it's Set, though. It doesn't matter to me if it was Set or not either way.

Agreed, that sh|t pissed me off big time. Cytorrak, Chthon, Shuma Gorath, Dormammu, Mephisto, and crew fearing the Serpent? GTFO of here with that garbage Marvel.


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 08:40 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/...athvishanti.jpg

Agamotto: "It is Stephen Strange - - Disciple of our revered servant, the Ancient One! Still, we must deny his request for aid - - lest we upset the cosmic balance - - and open the door to chaos!"


Okay. Fair enough. But can someone explain what the hell "cosmic balance" even means? I understand LT maintains cosmic balance but what exactly does that entail? And why would gods fighting other gods disrupt this 'cosmic balance'? Zom being present on Earth somehow disrupted cosmic balance too. I always figured cosmic balance was something that only concerned cosmic type characters but it seems like obscure magic characters also have a lot to do with maintaining cosmic balance...

Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 09:36 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CortSether
You're relying way too much on that scan where the Vishanti said they are no longer concerned with the fate of Earth. The same issue the Vishanti said they couldn't help Doctor Strange in any way otherwise they would upset the cosmic balance and open the door to chaos - this was stated on panel by Agamotto.

And I can see you're getting mad so...

Celebration dance!
(please log in to view the image)



And anyway I don't know why the hell we're arguing about this since according to Marvel illustrations in the Fear Itself arc both Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath (as well as Set, Chthon, and Cyttorak) are weaklings concerned about the awesome power of the Serpent, so Marvel thinks they both suck.


That's Pak BS writing, that crap doesn't make any sense. Like he did to Gaea origin, phucked it up!!

Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 10:28 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
He did no such thing. He's never faced off against another God or Cosmic on panel that I'm aware of.

Strange fought Gorath 3 times that I can recall :
A) First time, he wasn't Sorcerer Supreme and he pwned all of Gorath's servants and was later forced to kill a dying AO to banish Gorath. It was AFTER the AO's death that Strange became SS and the AO gave his powers to Strange.
B) Second time they fought, Strange had destroyed (or thought he destroyed ALL his artifacts) this weakened the spells he cast keeping various demons out and allowed them to gain access to 616 reality. Even without his artifacts, he managed to humiliated servant after servant of Gorath, before finally humiliating Gorath himself.
C) Last time they fought, a non SS Strange beat Gorath by teleporting him, against his will I may add, to Stonehenge.

Gorath is phuckin' fail compared to Dormammu.

Dormammu has gone up against the likes of Eternity, Odin, Gaea, a cabal of Hell Lords that included Mephisto, and others I'm not recalling right now.
Gorath has fought Death kind of

We don't talk about the ending though...


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Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 10:32 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
We don't talk about the ending though...


I enjoyed Thanos Imperative save for the ending. Not at all how I expected the finale to go down, and I mean that in a very bad way.

quote:
Originally posted by zopzop
Agreed, that sh|t pissed me off big time. Cytorrak, Chthon, Shuma Gorath, Dormammu, Mephisto, and crew fearing the Serpent? GTFO of here with that garbage Marvel.


Yup. At least we can agree on that.


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Last edited by Robbie_Rotten on Feb 8th, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Old Post Feb 8th, 2013 11:35 PM
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ODG
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by the Darkone
That's Pak BS writing, that crap doesn't make any sense. Like he did to Gaea origin, phucked it up!!
That was Gillen. Pak had nothing to do with Fear Itself.


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Old Post Feb 9th, 2013 01:19 AM
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the Darkone
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ODG
That was Gillen. Pak had nothing to do with Fear Itself.
Him too a degree because that crap doesn't make any sense. Pak, Fraction suck when it comes down to Continuity period, the crap they pulled is some BS.

Old Post Feb 9th, 2013 01:31 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by the Darkone
Him too a degree because that crap doesn't make any sense. Pak, Fraction suck when it comes down to Continuity period, the crap they pulled is some BS.


What crap?

Old Post Feb 10th, 2013 01:30 AM
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