You said the Youngilng's deaths and Order 66 happened before Mace went to kill Sidious. You said it right here:
That is incorrect. Get your facts straight, brah.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Order 66 was a result of the Jedi-Sith animosity, and it did certainly make the Jedi even more angry at the Sith, but that alone was not the pure cause of it.
Yes, he just really sucked at establishing that fact.
That had absolutely nothing to do with what I just said. Way to beat around the bush.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I love to indulge into hypothethicals partially, and crucially to this discussion, because hypothethicals help me to understand the "real main storyline" much more.
That's very hard to explain. I won't explain how just right now.
OK, but here's the hypothethical. What if Palpatine wasn't the person that started the Clone Wars, but the Jedi still found out that he was a Sith Lord.
They still would try to kill/arrest him, because of "the oppression of the Sith will never return", and in TPM, the Sith were heavily implied to be the Jedi's enemies, long before the Naboo Invasion.
true. but this is not to be confused with people being arrested for dabbling in the dark side. the sith is not only a couple of people using the dark side of the force, nor just a religious sect, but also a deposed and condemned criminal totalitarianism. since the old order was still in place (that past the apparent sentence on the sith) they were in fact criminals at large.
arrest: justified
and yes i know thats not a helpful answer. just pointing out that this particular question is a dead end, imho.
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
Order 66.. Wasn't that just another part of the overall big plan of palpatine? He manipulated nearly everything in the prequels. Created a clone army before it was needed to use them to defeat the droid army he was secretly commanding.. The dude was having a civil war with himself and manipulated the Jedi his only real opposition to power into joining the war threw the threat of the sith. As in Mauls presence alerting the Jedi of sith manipulation in the hostilities on naboo and putting them in a state of alert. The Jedi fought the war as generals and got stretched thin across the universe.. Then when things seemed to be reaching it's end and the separatist forces were on the ropes Palpatine deemed the Jedi traitors and issued ordered 66. Why? My impression was it was a 'fail safe' order given to the clones from the start just in case the Jedi turned. So when palpatine felt compromised he issued the order to kill as many Jedi off as he possibly could without having to do it himself.
It also cut all support from the people toward the Jedi and solidified him as the good guy. Everything was played out to make him the hero and insure his galactic throne.
He started a galactic war ending countless lives all so he could manipulate politics and as the man who lead them to victory would ensure galactic peace by establishing a galactic empire.
That's evil, sith or not.
Why are sith evil? They have no regard for life and viciously seek power. Rule of two isn't a religious belief it's a rule established to keep the number of rivals low but still have an apprentice to further your goals.
At one point there were alot of sith.. And when every sith wants unlimited power and to rule then suddenly the people to worry most about are other sith. So rule of two. Clean and effective.
Was vader evil is what can be argued and honestly despite being given a fancy name I don't consider him a real sith. He failed to fully give himself to the dark side he just existed in some sort of limbo of sorts. Real sith could of wtf owned his son for not listening. It's the nature of dark side. Anakin was emotional and selfish (something a Jedi is not supposed to be) and vadar was broken but powerful and was used as a tool.
he executed the order and the jedi because the sith are inherently evil. the nature of evil is to consume everything and achieve absolute power, crushing all who oppose and all on the same planet as those who oppose...as in the context of the films.
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
Also on the topic of the death star.. They are not evil because they have a death star but the fact they created it at all never mind their intentions of using it as a tool of oppression and eradicating enemies along with the innocents of complete planets.
Because they don't have a death star or that it's construction wasn't known doesnt mean that somehow the Jedi are not justified in thinking their evil.
The Jedi are like monks and conduct themselves in certain ways and have respect for life even if they must take one to save many. The sith perverse their teachings and instead of being selfless are selfish and rather rule than serve. Not to mention i doubt they want their century old shame (the sith) to be common knowledge for all the universe to know.
The windu comment of their former oppressive rule was a hint to a longer history between the two factions and the fact that palpatine is instigating a galactic war which he is manipulating from both sides (something we know as viewers) that is causing chaos and death hints that that's the sith MO more or less.
Ahh, the Jedi opposed him. So, the arguement that the Jedi wanted to kill the Sith out of self defense after the Sith tried to kill them first is now INVALID!
But here's the plot hole. He was clouding their minds with the darkside.
The Jedi would have no idea that he's a Sith if their minds were so clouded with the darkside. If Palpatine never revealed his Sith identity to Mace Windu and kit fisto and the other two guys via telling Anakin, they would never know.
They never knew that he was a Sith beforehand because of that.
So, the arguement that Palpatine killed them because they wouldn't allow a Sith Lord to rule the galaxy is false/invalid.
And, besides, yes, what if some random Sith guy that didn't commit treason became the ruler, and the Jedi found out that he was a sith lord?
Please list some EU sith atrocities for me!
Prove to me that the Jedi didn't arrest you simply for dabbling in the darkside, whoever wrote that post before. Please give me some examples of people legally being allowed by the Jedi/Republic. to practice the darkside
i was speaking in terms of republic law, not the jedi order. "in the name of the republic blah blah you are under arrest", remember?
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
Sith oppression is not a reference to the treasonous clone wars. Here's why.
In TPM, even before the Naboo Invasion and the clone wars, the Jedi talked about the Sith as if they were discussing some ancient boogeyman enemy figures.
im not trying to pimp the old circular argument of "they were evil because they were enemies of the state" or vice versa. im just suggesting that you're attacking the problem from a poor angle. the sith were in fact enemies of the state, as suggested by the arrest. i dont think moral implications are absolute either way so its a moot point.
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
Because they were. They didn't think any sith still existed.
Windu didn't reference the clone wars. Hell they didn't even know the clones would betray them and if you mean as a reference to him manipulating the war of course it wasn't. They have no way of knowing all at information. All they know is that sith were involved in the war. Dooku was believed to be head of the serpitist and then suddenly Anakin says that Palpatine was a sith and suddenly all the odd little suspicions they had of him and his motivations made sense and they wanted to arrest him and most likely question him to figure out what was really going on. Why? Because he is a sith a corrupted Jedi. No one knows more what they are capable of than the Jedi so they practiced caution.
Also they don't kill all those who slip into the dark side. They try to redeem them and turn them back to the light side. Killing is a last resort in those cases and often is in self defense. If the threat is a sith lord.. A person who has dedicated their lives to the perversions of the dark side and someone who only seeks power, death and the control of others then they fight them to the death. As Jedi it's their responsability to handle their dark brethren.
The Hundred-Year Darkness, also known as Second Great Schism, was a conflict that began in 7,003 BBY, and lasted until approximately 6,900 BBY, when a group of Dark Jedi created monstrous armies to battle the Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic. After decades of fighting, the Dark Jedi lost the war, in its final battle, but went on to conquer Korriban, and found the Sith.
There.. The founding of the sith order after a failed attempt to destroy/over throw the Jedi and the galactic republic. Evil roots to a evil way of life.
meh thats EU. your points have to be based on canon.
__________________ "Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."
Feb 26th, 2013 10:56 PM
