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Alien: Covenant
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, dude. If you loved the flick, you loved the flick. But some of the actions the characters made in the film were outright nonsensical and really can't be defended.


Pretty much this.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:14 PM
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Ascendancy
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Going to have to agree. I loved the film, but that was one of the WTF moments in the film. They could have also done a better job of dealing with the surgery scene. It was relatively clear that the stimulants and such were letting her run around, but wasn't the best execution of things. It was pretty clear that someone with some pull *cough cough* said it had to be done way "X" no matter what.

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 09:11 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, dude. If you loved the flick, you loved the flick. But some of the actions the characters made in the film were outright nonsensical and really can't be defended.


The flaws, psychoses, and poor behavior of humanity is a theme implied by the movie, anyway. So it makes sense that the crew members wouldn't all be perfectly-behaved goodie-two-shoes or even completely rational.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 11:02 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
The flaws, psychoses, and poor behavior of humanity is a theme implied by the movie, anyway. So it makes sense that the crew members wouldn't all be perfectly-behaved goodie-two-shoes or even completely rational.


They outright did REALLY dumb shit, which people have gone through already in the Prometheus thread at one point or another.

Like getting lost, even though those two cats were in constant radio contact with the ship, had positioning markers and a 3D map of the bunker. Things like that can't be done away with being "irrational". Was CIS for the sake of the story.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 11:19 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
They outright did REALLY dumb shit, which people have gone through already...


Exactly, the same group-think opinion that has been repeated ad nauseum here. I disagree, though. If Fifield and Milburn had skipped around, poored milk on their heads, and mooned the snake, then THAT would have been really dumb shit. What they did was not that dumb.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Like getting lost, even though those two cats were in constant radio contact with the ship, had positioning markers and a 3D map of the bunker. Things like that can't be done away with being "irrational". Was CIS for the sake of the story.


Janek mentioned that the signal had been coming in sporadically because of the storm, so apparently they weren't in constant contact with the ship. Janek acted like he hadn't heard from them when Shaw asked about them.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 12:35 AM
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Kazenji
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Exactly, the same group-think opinion that has been repeated ad nauseum here. I disagree, though. If Fifield and Milburn had skipped around, poored milk on their heads, and mooned the snake, then THAT would have been really dumb shit. What they did was not that dumb.


What they did was dumb.......

your on an unknown planet and you come across a new creature, you don't go up to it and try and pat it and scratch its chin.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 01:39 AM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kazenji
your on an unknown planet and you come across a new creature, you don't go up to it and try and pat it and scratch its chin.


Must I point out that as far as they knew they were INVITED to the planet and the air suddenly became breathable? Also, there's a deleted scene in which Milburn picks up a smaller worm-like creature with great fascination as the first alien discovery, which helps lend some explanation for why he acted the way he did. Not that dumb of an action. Unadvisable perhaps, under certain circumstances, but not really that dumb. It's an unprecedented situation.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 02:30 AM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Must I point out that as far as they knew they were INVITED to the planet and the air suddenly became breathable? Also, there's a deleted scene in which Milburn picks up a smaller worm-like creature with great fascination as the first alien discovery, which helps lend some explanation for why he acted the way he did. Not that dumb of an action. Unadvisable perhaps, under certain circumstances, but not really that dumb. It's an unprecedented situation.
The guy freaked out when he saw a decapitated Alien head but is all willing to get buddy buddy with an Alien worm that he has no idea about.

The fact is they did stupid irrational things. That this was a team of supposedly the best experts in their fields makes it even more disappointing.

And the filmmakers never actually tackled any of the big questions they raised only glossing it over.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 02:01 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Newjak

And the filmmakers never actually tackled any of the big questions they raised only glossing it over.


I'd say the origin of all life in the Universe is a pretty big question, you don't think so?


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 02:11 PM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I'd say the origin of all life in the Universe is a pretty big question, you don't think so?
It is but bringing it up and glossing over it isn't imo tackling or taking on the question.

It always just glossed over. Which was disappointing to me. This might be the first movie I've ever gone to see where I had no expectations of the movie and thoroughly got taken out of it by how little it actually did with the plot and characters.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 02:33 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Newjak
It is but bringing it up and glossing over it isn't imo tackling or taking on the question..


What you call "glossing over" I call not spoon-feeding the audience. There's plenty there to think about through symbolism and metaphor, it's just more vague and mysterious (ala 2001: A Space Oddyssey) and not insulting and obvious (ala Avatar).


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 06:23 PM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
What you call "glossing over" I call not spoon-feeding the audience. There's plenty there to think about through symbolism and metaphor, it's just more vague and mysterious (ala 2001: A Space Oddyssey) and not insulting and obvious (ala Avatar).
They introduced the questions and thoughts but never did anything with them. It seemed less they were going to vague mystery and more it was either lazy or they tried to hard to be clever and couldn't execute it properly.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2013 06:36 PM
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Patient_Leech
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Okay. Just out of curiosity, what did you expect them to "do" with it?

All I expected was a compelling, exciting story set within this dark, mysterious, and thought-provoking universe (as well as well-conceived creatures and designs).

And quite frankly, I think it's undeniable that they succeeded in that regard.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2013 01:58 AM
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Ascendancy
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To the origins issue, they did a great job.

To the common sense issue, there were some dumb things happening once they got planet-side.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2013 04:48 AM
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Esau Cairn
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
What you call "glossing over" I call not spoon-feeding the audience. There's plenty there to think about through symbolism and metaphor, it's just more vague and mysterious (ala 2001: A Space Oddyssey) and not insulting and obvious (ala Avatar).


Agreed. But sometimes an audience perceives more in a movie than the director or story writer ever intended...much like how different religious institutions translate the Bible or the Koran for that matter.

I mean Prometheus became a movie that Ridley had to justify & explain through numerous articles rather than let the movie speak for itself.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2013 05:10 AM
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Kazenji
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Newjak
but is all willing to get buddy buddy with an Alien worm that he has no idea about.
.


No wonder people on this planet get attack by dogs that they don't know.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2013 05:25 AM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Okay. Just out of curiosity, what did you expect them to "do" with it?

All I expected was a compelling, exciting story set within this dark, mysterious, and thought-provoking universe (as well as well-conceived creatures and designs).

And quite frankly, I think it's undeniable that they succeeded in that regard.
When I saw them on their way to the planet they started off strong, they were asking the right questions, setting the stage for great thought provoking dialogue and discussions.

After seeing that I was expecting smart characters intelligently interacting with the deep material quickly presented.

Instead what I got was stupid irrational characters blundering through the plot which was all over the place with only minor quips on the questions it set out to at least discuss.

It's not wanting 'answers' spoon fed to me. It's wanting the characters presented in the movie to actually take on those questions with real intelligent thought provoking dialogue and actions.

It just disappointed me because what the movie made it seem like it was gonna be in the beginning turned out to be false. It was a well made horror movie presented with your typical horror movie characters doing stupid things to continue the plot for plot's sake.

Which normally would be okay for me but based on the opening minutes of the movie I thought it was gonna be so much more. So every time Promethus turned into what it was, it just took me out of it.

Or in short it raised the questions, but then didn't do anything of note or intelligence with them not imo.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2013 12:50 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Agreed. But sometimes an audience perceives more in a movie than the director or story writer ever intended...

You're getting into artist intention now, which is a whole other can of worms. You can't prove what may or may not have been intended. All you can do is see what's there and work with it. And that's what well constructed art is supposed to do: inspire fans to get things out of it (intended or not). Clearly the film was very specifically constructed, so I'm sure much of it was intended. I'll give an example of something that I think is very interesting about the film: You have 3 very distinct decapitated heads that seem to represent some sort of Unholy Dark Trinity:

-Head Statue (Father)
-David's head (Son)
-Engineer head (Holy Spirit)

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Father

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Son

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Holy Spirit


The head statue almost seems to represent God because it appears to be some sort of idol for worship (Fifield openly wonders that very thing). David is the Son that Weyland never had, and the Engineer who was decapitated is even shown running as a hologram as if some sort of holy spirit. I don't care whether it was intended or not, it's damn cool. I think we're going to find out more about these Engineer's rituals and "religion" (so to speak), which makes this pretty interesting.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
I mean Prometheus became a movie that Ridley had to justify & explain through numerous articles rather than let the movie speak for itself.

I haven't seen him having to justify and explain it. Please link.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Newjak
When I saw them on their way to the planet they started off strong, they were asking the right questions, setting the stage for great thought provoking dialogue and discussions.

After seeing that I was expecting smart characters intelligently interacting with the deep material quickly presented.

Sounds like it was your expectations, man. It's not really meant to be a dialogue movie. It's meant to spark dialogue amongst the audience, like a little puzzle. Hence the rubix cube...

(please log in to view the image)


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Newjak
[B]Instead what I got was stupid irrational characters blundering through the plot...


That's horror movies for you. Expectations again. They made no mistake about it being a horror movie. Alien was a sci-fi horror movie, too.


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2013 11:52 PM
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steverules_2
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How is a decapitated head the holy spirit?


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2013 10:50 AM
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Esau Cairn
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
You're getting into artist intention now, which is a whole other can of worms. You can't prove what may or may not have been intended. All you can do is see what's there and work with it. And that's what well constructed art is


Make no mistake,I've read all your insights into Prometheus & I admire & respect your passion for this particular movie.I too have my movies that I'm blind & impartial to their shortcomings. However I'm one of many that did walk away scratching my head wondering a) Whether the movie was just badly edited OR whether Ridley & co-writer "made up the story as they went along"?
I mean watching Prometheus again just left me with more quirky observations that still made no sense to the storyline but just simply "looked good" to watch.
1) The holographic sequence of The Engineers clearly running away in panic & fright,only to be massacred in a pile.... WHY were they trying to escape & seek sanctuary in the chamber with the canisters of deadly black goo?
2) In the end of the film we see the creation of the very first "alien" that will eventually evolve to the aliens we know. YET earlier in the film, when the crew discover the chamber of goo,we clearly see a carving on the wall of an already clearly advanced Alien Queen. This clearly suggests that aliens were already an integral part of The Engineers' plans & yet the end of the movie clearly hints/suggests the creation/birth of the very 1st Alien Being.
This is how the movie just keeps stumbling & contradicting itself.

Old Post Mar 10th, 2013 11:08 AM
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