SWL, people are just now opening up to the idea of engaging you again. Don't sabotage this elusive moment of magnanimity by furiously masturbating to TOR, KotOR and its characters.
No one's taking it to heart and no one's suggesting you blindly concede anything. But because this is indeed intended to be a lighthearted past time and not an excruciating chore... you may want to reconsider some things.
I have no interest in bashing any fellow member in these debates; I am past this stage.
However, labeling my debates as "trap" for others is not a welcome sign.
I am waiting for the moment when I gain access to BioWare forums; it is great place for Star Wars debates. Once this happens, I won't bother posting in the Star Wars section of this forum.
Fans of all Star Wars eras lurk in that forum. At least, people are not given SU call over there; you can post to your heart's fill and expect decent debate in return.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 18th, 2013 at 02:42 PM
In many ways Darth Maul was an exemplary acolyte. His loyalty was unquestionable and unshakable; Sidious knew that, if he were to command it, Maul would sacrifice his life without a second's hesitation. And his skills as a warrior were nonpareil.
-Shadow Hunter
He defeated Anoon Bondara, who according to his apprentice, had swordmanship ''unmatched'' and skills ''second to none'', defeated Qui-Gon Jinn who was called one of the best in the order, has effortlessly stomped Savage Opress who has fought as an equal with Plo Koon and Asajj Ventress, he has fought as an equal with Obi-Wan Kenobi who has fought even with (and defeated) General Grievous
Skill-wise, Maul has just as good of quotes as Revan, but better feats. Force-wise, Maul has better feats as far as TK: throwing ships, ragdolling Obi Wan, collapsing cave cielings, etc...
There is nothing to indicate that Revan is better than Maul, IMO. And if he is, it's not by much.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Indeed, this place used to be pretty epic with the 2000+ word responses being the norm and all of the crazy drama. I think the real reason it isn't as good as it used to be is that for the most part all of the posters that were good for the forum and livened the place up either left or stopped actively debating, in particular people like Lightsnake and strangely enough Darth Sexy lol. God I had some legendary debates with Darth Sexy back in the day.
__________________
Ever17: The Out of Infinity
17 years of gratitude to Scythe for the as ever excellent signature and avatar!
Aristotle posited that virtue is the mean between two extremes. The Antediluvian reign was one of perpetual mob rule and naked speculation. Now, we’re all absurd Rules Lawyers who viciously nitpick. Methodological errors either way, but it can’t be denied that this place was so much better when Gideon was in charge…
As for me, I just don’t have the patience or energy for protracted engagements anymore. I infrequently dip my toes in the water elsewhere, where stylistic discrepancies are better understood and where a world that “bristles with the dark side” is commonly interpreted as a dark side nexus. But even then, I can’t juggle three or four 12+ page debates like I used to.
I do not underestimate Maul's skill but my argument is that he is not in the league of Revan.
"Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would." (SWTOR: Revan)
"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met." (SWTOR: Revan)
"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force." (KoTOR 2)
The apprentice's POV is questionable. Mace, Yoda and Dooku were better then Anoon.
Any quote?
Maul was relatively better trained and more learned in the ways of the Force.
Obi-Wan Kenobi is good but he is not in the league of Revan either.
---
Revan have subdued stronger opponents.
Some examples:
- Revan utterly destroyed Nyriss with his raw power; the latter individual was so powerful that she put both Scourge and Meetra to shame.
- Revan subdued Malak aboard Star Forge; the latter individual was stated to be "nearly unstoppable" at this stage.
Revan have defeated several other powerful opponents in single combat. He even came close to assassinating the mighty Sith Emperor.
Revan's combat performance (on the whole) aboard Star Forge puts Maul to shame.
Their is simply no comparison.
Revan was an expert swordsman by all accounts.
Revan packs much greater raw power. Explanation below.
Well, Revan is very impressive in SWTOR. Even after enduring 3 centuries of torture, the Imperial Strike Team found Revan a force to be reckoned with. Malgus himself pointed out that the Imperial Strike Team was the only hope for the Empire to stop Revan.
This statement makes no sense.
These fancy TK feats do not prove much.
Consider this example:
Orgus Din collapsed a Cave entrance or possibly more in front of HoT. Not long afterwards, Bengal Morr ragdolled Orgus Din in front of HoT like a pro.
Get the memo?
Maul is simply better explored in the mythos in the context of Force powers then Revan. However, given the reputation of latter, he is likely to put Maul to shame in a showdown of Force powers. To give you an idea; Revan could collapse a building if he really wanted to with his TK abilities, as per Drew Karpyshyn.
In the Revan novel, we never got to see Revan in a situation in which he had to exert to perform a feat. He just gestured and feats happened as per his wishes. Nothing more; nothing less.
You talk about offensive capabilities?
Revan send Vitiate packing with his TK abilities; he can take good care of Maul. In addition, Revan was also a practitioner of dark side powers and very good in their use. Remember what he did to Nyriss?
Revan is logically far more powerful then Maul. You cannot make an accurate assessment of Revan's strength without a holistic examination of his power progression in his life.
As an example:
Revan packed so much raw power that when he found himself on the receiving end of Nyriss's signature FL, he literally bend it back to his opponent, utterly destroying her in the process. Do you think that Maul could survive in Revan shoes if he found himself in the same situation? No. He lacked the strength and proficiency to deal with such kind of threat; he wasn't as strong as Revan - not even close.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 18th, 2013 at 08:35 PM
Since we've all agreed that the team utterly humiliates Revan:
Maul vs. Revan
Sabers: Maul - Revan's best saber feat was fighting a featless imperial guard while Maul has taken on swordsmasters like Quigon, Obiwan, etc.
Force: Maul - Revan's best feats from the novel are below Maul's feats of moving ships and ragdolling jedi; Maul has survived lightning from Sidious himself and tanked Mighella's
All-out: Maul
Seriously, Savage vs. Revan would be a better fight.
Why are you all centering this on a conflict between Maul and Revan? So what if Darth Maul isn't strong as Revan? He has three other powerful allies--Savage, Pre, and Bo-Katan. Their abilities are quite considerable too. I think it'd be unfair to say Maul carries the team the entire team.
I think Maul would serve as the greatest swordsman.
I think Savage would cause a lot of strain and physical pain to Revan.
I think Pre would have tons of fun throwing nades from the sky.
I think Bo-Katan could be classified as a DPS, and pack quite a punch.
What feats of Revan make you think he is stronger than Maul? The best feats he has off the top of my head are defeating a sith lord with her own lightning (and Maul doesn't tend to use lightning last time I checked) and beating Malak (who honestly isn't any higher on feats than Revan). What you think does not equal feats.
I don't doubt that he's got a good understanding of the force and huehue, but Maul has ragdolled Kenobi, collapsed a cave, manhandled a big ship, hurled soldiers with force waves and whatnot.
Simply too much for Revan to overcome.
Agreed, like Scourge's and Surik's.
Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than four hundred years in the order. Qui-Gon had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance. He had survived battles that had tested his skill and resolve in every conceivable way.
Maul was relatively better trained and more learned in the ways of the Force.
-The Phantom Menace
Obi-Wan has dueling feats above Revan's.
By redirecting the lightning with his hands, not a dueling feat really.
As if Maul wouldn't. Malak sucks.
He doesn't have the chance to assassinate Maul.
Not really.
And Maul isn't?
Darth Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.
-Episode I Visual Dictionary
The present Sith Master, Darth Sidious is the diabolically brilliant mind behind training one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history: the deadly Darth Maul.
-Episode I Visual Dictionary
Not really. Maul's cyber-legs combined with his physical strength allowed him to handle Opress' strength like it was nothing. Pretty sure that before Opress became a Sith he stones so they received dents, and after his amp Opress flung Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan across rooms, broke Battledroids.
Well LeGeND had it straight from Drew Karpyshan that Revans TK is powerful enough to destroy a building. So thats pretty impressive if you think its valid.
The Imperial Strike Team sent to kill Revan found him a force to be reckoned with. This Strike Team was made-up of bad@sses too. So what makes you think that Revan will be utterly humiliated in this hypothetical confrontation. It is rumored that Revan haven't died during his confrontation with the Imperial Strike Team. Your claim is subjective and is not a representation of POV of everybody.
As per canonical sources, Imperial Guard are exceptionally skilled combatants. Having feats doesn't makes you unstoppable by default. Revan have impaled many adversaries with his blade; that Imperial Guard individual was just one of the victims in a very long list.
Revan have also slain two Terentateks simultaneously in the Tomb of Naga Sadow. Does Maul have a comparable showing?
Have Maul ever cut a swath through an army?
In addition, neither Obi-Wan and nor Qui-Gon jinn have demonstrated combat performance on par with Revan.
So your subjective claim have no merit in it.
Another subjective assessment from you which makes no sense at all. Since when have Maul tanked Sidious's lightning? Last time, I checked he was begging for mercy and crying in pain when Sidious tortured him with his lightning. And Mighella is supposed to be a lightning God or something? What have she done to warrant a mention in this debate?
As far as feats are concerned, Revan did not found himself in a situation during which he had to exert to perform a feat of epic proportions. It is not in his nature to leave a trail of destruction in his path without a solid reason. Revan took steps that were adequate for his objectives. A powerful Sith may think differently in his shoes; powerful Sith often tend to leave a trail of destruction in their path to intimate their opponents/surroundings, but Revan thinks differently. You should not confuse lack of feats with lack of capability; their is a clear distinction between these two.
Revan's companions have acknowledged his immense power. As an example: Meetra Surik felt that Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of everybody else's whom she have met. You know what this implies? To give you a hint, Meetra Surik have dealt with some very impressive adversaries.
May 18th, 2013 02:16 PM
