And it has nothing to do with preference; plenty of people around here prefer one character or one era over another without being quite so lopsided and heavy handed with interpretation.
This is kinda the crux of the problem, isn't it?
You conflate the belief of certain people that Revan would lose to certain characters as a belief that Revan is "a loser when it comes to the command of the Force."
More importantly, you're more than guilty of using stylistic differences in mediums to your advantage when it's there (as you've been doing with Vitiate et al.). But when it's not to your advantage, you cry foul.
No, it hasn't. What's been introduced is the idea that Sidious advertised Maul as a tool to Plagueis. Yet Maul is still regarded as the "Sith apprentice" to Darth Sidious on the official website and in other, contemporary sources.
You're manipulating a character's perception of another character and attempting to pass it off as the gospel in order to invalidate a quote you don't like.
And I agree with that.
But you only apply it with respect to characters you happen to like. When it involves characters you don't like, you default to feat wars. When you claim Vitiate is the most powerful whatever, you hammer your opponent with feat after feat after feat after feat and expect it to be the end all. But when Revan's involved, you attack others for determining his relative weakness on feats.
I admit that nobody is absolutely free from bias but I don't unnecessarily exaggerate and misrepresent information that I bring to the table to further my agenda in a debate. Much of the argument that I have offered in favor of Revan in this thread is based on sound reasoning and analysis of the available information pertaining to him. On the contrary, I have caught member (Intrepid37) exaggerating and misrepresenting information pertaining to Maul on several of his points in this thread. He even misrepresented one of my points to further his agenda in this debate.
Really? As per fans of PT/OT era lore, Revan looses to any character of note from PT/OR era. This is a pattern in many threads in this forum.
I have adequate number of sources pertaining to Vitiate to make it possible for me to argue in his favor when I feel inclined to. Fans of PT/OT era lore think nothing of Vitiate either.
This;
"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." (Darth Plagueis to Darth Sidious)
What do you make of this assertion of Plagueis?
In addition, if I have to take the quote regarding Maul's training from an old source literally then where is the compelling evidence that confirms Maul's great knowledge of Sith practices? Maul's story have been significantly advanced till date but the evidence of his supposed great knowledge of the Sith practices is still absent.
I use all information at my disposal to argue in the favor of a character that I choose to debate for. I work with whatever data I have access to; if a character have lot of documented feats, I mention them but still do not solely rely upon them to make a point. I rely upon both logic and evidence to advance my view points.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 20th, 2013 at 11:47 PM
Apparantly I have now been caught several times exaggerating Maul's power...
...and apparantly you don't know what a retcon is, Legend. Adi Gallia's death have been retconned in newer canon material i.e contradicted. Maul being one of the most dangerous hasn't been contradicted, especially considering canon proof confirms he's gotten even more powerful.
__________________ ohai
Last edited by Intrepid37 on May 21st, 2013 at 09:45 AM
Ah right you answered my question here. All the first paragraph shows is Sidious showed Maul to Plagueis as a tool. That doesn't mean it was Sidious's real intention to train him as a tool.
TCW has made it clear Maul was trained to one day be Sith Master. That's T-Canon, so it overwrites any less canon source suggesting otherwise.
Yes. Unashamedly, I would say. Revisit all of my responses on pages 5 and 6.
I do understand the concept of retcon.
This statement:
Darth Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order. (Episode I Visual Dictionary)
Is under scrutiny and apparently retconned in the Plagueis novel. Maul is more of a brute then a well-trained Sith Lord.
----
Also, "being one of the most dangerous" is also a very old accolade; Yes, Maul have emerged stronger during the Clone Wars but I do maintain that Maul is not a heavyweight in the light of latest developments in the mythos. As an example: Darth Malgus would destroy Maul rather easily and even he is "one of the prominent" individuals in the Empire. And the Empire have very long history which suggests that many (super) powerful Sith Lords have emerged and passed. Then we have KoTOR 2 monsters and many more. Seriously, it would be unwise of you to toss around old accolades given to Maul like gospel in the light of latest developments in the mythos.
Maul is definitely "above average" and one of the strongest in his era. However, he is not impressive when the whole history is considered. Also, impressive feats, are a norm in big-budget/screen mediums in current times, so Maul isn't unique in this regard.
Elaborate!
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 21st, 2013 at 08:22 PM
If Intrepid37 is biased towards Maul, this is the only thread in which he's displayed it. You, on the other hand, have been demonstrably biased towards Revan, Malak, and KotOR/TOR characters since your day of registration. At its very best, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
And you haven't been doing the exact same thing with PT/OT characters viz a viz KotOR/TOR era characters?
No, they just don't think as highly of him as you do. And they don't have to.
What do you make of this assertion of Plagueis?
...I've read the book and I'm familiar with the quote and it's already been explained to you: Sidious presented Maul to Plagueis as an expendable tool but secretly trained him as a full-blown Sith.
The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded (released months after Plagueis) still refers to Maul as a Sith apprentice, as does the official website. Let it go, Maul's accolade stands.
Nah, that's horseshit. You want to reduce an argument to feat wars when it's in your advantage to do so. Quit b1tching that your opponent does the same.
I debate in favor of these characters because they are commonly misrepresented and illogically lowballed in the "versus" threads. Majority of my arguments are supported by evidence and logically constructed, though my record is not without mistakes (which is the case with almost everybody). On the whole, I have debated in favor of characters of different eras; and not just TOR era ones. If I am "biased" in the favor of TOR era lore by virtue of my posting history then you are also "biased" in the favor of PT/OT (and newer era) lore by the same token.
No! I don't subscribe to the notion that TOR era characters are inferior to PT/OT/newer era characters in power and skill. Somehow PT/OT/newer era fans believe this to be the case and they have advanced this agenda on the basis of misrepresenting statements of GL (ironically links are never provided by them) and reliance on (outdated) information. Same pattern have been observed in this thread.
Then why single me out for ridicule?
Why doesn't he demonstrates Sith powers like Dooku and Sidious?
Of-course, Maul is a Sith apprentice; you think that he would be regarded as a Jedi apprentice?
My focus is on what kind of training he received?
I don't reduce my arguments to feat wars; do you see my arguments restricted to feats based information only in my debates?
In this thread alone, my arguments are not restricted to feats based information. Maybe you need new (shiny) glasses.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 21st, 2013 at 09:29 PM
Either you've not seen all TCW episodes featuring Maul or you've completely missed what they were showing. Maul was heavily trained in the ways of the Sith by Darth Sidious.
He used Sidious's trianing to become a new Galactic threat. He was clearly much more than the brute your making him out to be.
So how you interpret what Plagueis thought was the case is irrelevant.
You could take the word of the dozens of posters who, over the years, have called you out on it.
This discussion right here is enough of an example.
More horseshit for the mountain range of it you've been collecting. You occasionally debating in favor of non-TOR!characters does not disprove the existence of a general bias in favor of them.
Yeah, except unlike you, I (a) don't deny my bias and (b) still debate under single standards.
I know. But you do subscribe to the notion that PT/OT/newer era characters are inferior in power and skill to TOR era characters.
You just tried to misrepresent G-canon for your own agenda in another thread. Why should I sympathize with you since you use the same tactics your enemies claim to use?
Because you, by far, demonstrate the most egregious bias and dishonest debating methodology out of the SWVF roster of regular posters.
People don't have to think Vitiate is weaksauce to think that he's not the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
Because he's not as powerful as Dooku or Sidious?
Likewise, you say members of the Dark Council are some of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy... why don't they demonstrate the same sort of powers as Vitiate?
I'll tell you why: because being one of the most powerful X doesn't make you as powerful as Y. Similarly, Maul being "one of" the most highly trained Sith Lords in history doesn't mean he has to be as skilled as Dooku or Sidious.
The quote is repeated again in the 2013 revival of the Star Wars Fact File, SWL. Let it go.
Glasses on or off, I see you piss and moan when people use your tactics for characters you don't like. Either conform to a single standard or quit b1tching.
Nothing suggests Maul still isn't one of the deadliest Sith ever. In a late 2012 canon source, Shadow Conspiracy, it is confirmed Maul has grown more powerful.
It was a way of saying that Maul has fulfilled his reputation just as good as Revan.
Nice attempt to belittle feats you don't like.
Irrelevant, neither of these are on Maul's level.
Kenobi has been ragdolled numerous times yet he stalemated Vader in their force contest; Vader, at this point has equal showings in the force to Maul.
There we go, proof Maul hasn't displayed his ''peak TK abilities''.
None of his telekinetic abilities have shown to be above Maul's. Lightning should be blocked and Saber Throw should be avoided.
Command of the force isn't everything. Anakin comes to mind.
Jesus christ.
Do you know the word ''struggle''? As when Opress tried to lift all the stones, he had a lot of trouble and dropped them soon after. Maul didn't struggle, he did it with one hand in the mass of blasterfire.
Stop.
Stalemated Vader in a contest of force power?
But the words of Surik and Scourge do?
I don't remember who you're talking about but if it's Kenobi as of TPM, agreed. But it was at the same time as dueling Qui-Gon Jinn.
All Malak has is a hyperbole statement. Defeating him doesn't make you uber.
Possibly.
Agreed, but then again, all their fights are close calls.
Agreed, considering I am arguing against him. You have shown nothing suggesting he'd be anything but destroyed in saber combat.
Malak is a role-model but Maul isn't?
Either way, such accomplishments aren't always a matter of power and I doubt any of the factors featuring ruling an empire will decide the outcome.
Don't be ludicrous. If you think the brothers would anything but destroy Kenobi with ease in a fair environment then you're off.
Tempest has, in another thread proven circumstances were in Kenobi's favor.
I meant to say if Sidious hadn't been there, he could've made a deadly empire.
From your biased point of view, yes.
He destroyed almost all of it in Shadow Hunter.
Neither have we Maul's.
Covered earlier.
You have yourself pointed out Maul was meant to be a deadly assassin, not one who was meant to surpass Sidious. Originally, his strong point was sabercombat, now, in the TCW, he hs very strong in the force.
...''high-end master of multiple forms.''
He'd smoke Revan for sure.
Mastering most to a high degree>skilled in all.
Fact is he was one of the most able swordmasters in the Order. Maul killed him with ease.
...or maybe Maul is just that good?
He has shown the ability to hang with Council members other than Yoda and Mace.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which reinforces my point that he wasn't second to none in the Order as his apprentice claimed him to be. Actions speak louder then words.
If we're talking about Anoon Bondara it was repeated in "Cloak of Deception" that his skills with a Saber were second to none.
SWLegend, you have two problems. You're highly underestimating Darth Maul's abilities, and you're the biggest Revan fanboy anybody could meet.
Secondly, I never compared Darth Maul to Vitiate. Maul and his team are the confronters--notice I used the word TEAM? With his extra support, he hasn't a chance of immediate infiltration/assassination. I didn't see Revan suddenly assassinating anyone in the Imperial Strike Team--not even the Agent or bounty hunter!
If I remember clearly (and I do), Savage in his rage-enhanced mode caused by pain that you expect him to endure plenty of thx to Revan, can create a Force Repulse that is extremely difficult to defend against. Secondly, Pre Vizsla and Bo-Katan are incredibly skilled in hand-to-hand. Maul is the best saberist, acrobat, and so on.
Savage has produced Force waves already. His physically enhanced saber blows send people flying, as shown in season 3.
Vizsla has overpowered Obi-Wan in hand-to-hand combat even while he was armed with a lightsaber. He fought as well as he did against Ahsoka while he was drunk. He gave even Maul a hard time. And he's the best Mandalorian swordsman I've ever seen in all of Star Wars as of yet.
Bo-Katan almost single-handedly took on four Mandalorian Super Commandos with only her body, she packed an incredible punch against Ahsoka while on top of the hull of moving, fast speeder. The only fear she ever had was of Vizsla's death. But there's no fast speeder to fight on so that doesn't count here.
Maul has overpowered/killed many Jedi using both the Force and his lightsaber. His display of power was quoted several times by Intrepid.
May 20th, 2013 10:58 PM
