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Death Toll in Man of Steel
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BruceSkywalker
The BatLord of the Jedi

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh who cares? He was a Newb. And it was awesome seeing Noob Superman wrecklessly fight Zod all over the place.

Plus it really will be believable now if people support Lex against Superman. Kind of reminded me of the JLU episode when Superman fights Captain Marvel completely recklessly, and by the end of it Lex has all the good PR.

For those who hate that, and want Superman being the sensible and careful good guy, and Lex being obviously evil to everyone, go watch Superman Returns again.



agreed..


Now that Mark Strong is being considered for Lex, he should be really good at getting people to hate Superman in the sequel


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 06:58 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
100,000 dead and 2 trillion in damage pales considerably compared to 7 billion dead (extinction) and the entire sum of the humanities' finances.

I really don't understand the "people died and shit was wrecked" complaints, it's a superhero film where the planet/humanity was threatened, not a Care Bears movie.

edit: would anyone really have wanted some scene of Superman calling out Zod and crew to settle their dispute in a desert, Zod accepting like a dunce and all we see is sand dunes being leveled, or similar?
thumb up I was about to make some of the same points. Superman had to stop Zod, or else Zod was going to kill every single human on earth(by his own accord.) 100,000 humans may have died as a result of their battle(remember, that is just speculation at this point), but even if 500,000 humans died, that is still vastly better than the alternative of 7 BILLION deaths which would have resulted from not fighting/killing Zod then and there.

It seems like people are quick to whine/nitpick before they consider context. Supes did what he had to do in that situation-- lets not act like Zod and his goons would have obliged had Superman said in the midst of battle: "Excuse me... Would you chaps mind taking our fight to a remote location several thousand miles from here? I doant wunt ne peeple 2 git hert!"

If you guys want a 'wholesome' Superman, then go watch every other Superman film that's been made. thumb down


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 07:07 PM
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emporerpants
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I mean, do people really think every fight scene should have happened in outer space or the desert? Seriously, if that where the case people would be complaining even worse than they are now. No way to win it seems. Also, rage complaining about Supes punching that other krytponian into a train is lulz worthy. So, what should have happened then? Should we have seen a Superman movie where no damage happens in every fight? How well exactly would that have gone over?

What about the hulk movie where hulk fights abomination in the city? How many people died during that? That's right, its not Superman so no one is complaining about that.


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 07:17 PM
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roughrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by emporerpants
Yeah, all it really is is people hating on the movie unfairly. Either they buy all the hate from the critics or they just plain don't like anything with supes in it and want to do whatever they can to make him look bad. Did everyone forget that zod said he was going to kill every human on the planet? He wanted to kill people to hurt Superman. He freaking said exactly that.

How could Supes have taken him out of Metropolis? Zod can fly at that point. If Supes tried to lead him away he would have simply not followed and wrecked the city further and the death toll would have risen even further until Supes came back, because Zod knew that killing people would hurt Supes.

Seriously, just because the avengers didn't focus on the destruction doesn't mean it didn't occur. That's just ignorant. It's pretty retarded to harp on the fact that people might have died during Supes's and Zod's fight and then give the avengers a free pass on the same thing. Anyone saying that people weren't killed during the avengers battle is in denial. Terrible terrible denial.

Let's also look at Thor's movie. When the destroyer armor showed up and Thor got his powers back, did he take the fight out of the town? No, he actually CREATED A DAMN TORNADO IN THE CENTER OF THAT TOWN. There is no way people didn't die because of that. Why does no one complain about that?


The town had emptied by that point; it was just Thor's fellow Asgardians and Jane Foster's group left.

I'm willing to give Superman a pass for what happens in MOS. He's new and just starting to perfect his powers at last; he's not like the veteran Supes who took on Zod & his henchmen in Superman II. I was concerned with the first YouTube clip that had him blowing Zod through the fields, the farm towers and finally into downtown Smallville. But I chalk that up to his inexperience, and he was doing his best to save the townspeople and soldiers during the fight with Faora. I never felt like he was indifferent to the humans around him, as some critics have claimed.


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 07:31 PM
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Rage.Of.Olympus
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What kind of reasoning is this?

A few million dead is better then 7 billion? This kind of talk should make Superman sick to his stomach. It's never acceptable to sacrifice lives.

You remember in the first Spider-Man movie where Goblin put Spider-Man in an impossible situation but he ended up saving Mary Jane and the children? Or when Loki overloaded the Bifrost and Thor figured that he could destroy it instead?

Heroes are put in impossible situations often, but the reason why they're heroes is because they find solutions for impossible situations. And Superman is the greatest hero of all.

I'm not hating on the movie, I'm criticizing which is perfectly reasonable. And the reason I'm doing this is because of how big of a fan I am of Superman's character. He's Superman, it's never acceptable to put innocents in danger, he doesn't have to be a ten year superhero veteran to know not to fly into a populated town causing deaths.


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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Jun 25th, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 11:05 PM
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Rage.Of.Olympus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
How can I compare the death toll? Are you kidding with the human lives? Yeah Superman gets the "OMG HE KILLED ZOD", but the countless of people, Tony, Thor, Hulk, and the rest of the Avengers took didn't even register in people's thoughts. Lets forget the countless of alien lives that were taken thanks to Tony. But hey it's okay, they are aliens right? Had they been Soviets, Nazi's, North Koreans, it would be okay, right?


How are you comparing innocent people of different nationality to Frost Giants (Soldiers I might add) and Chitauri Robot soldier drones?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
As for Superman's inability to consider Human lives? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? This it the guy who let his own father die for his beliefs; the same person who destroyed any hopes (so far) of getting Krypton back just so he can save earth. I'm sorry you feel so saddened that Superman can't stop a fight with 2 Kryptionians who probably have more combat experience and understanding than him to try and safe someone.


Yes, Clark was extremely reckless in this movie with how he fought. He at times actively diverted combat into populated zones.

I don't understand how Superman watching his father die to preserve his secret changes this.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Now I'm not trying to be a douche when I say this, but please, everyone including you who have this belief that heroes can save lives while fighting need to stop thinking that way. Sure it can happen when you are fighting at the level like those we see in movies like Avengers, Hulk, X-Men, or even Thor, but it isn't happening at the level MoS is. The fact that people here expect Superman to just take the fight someone outside of Metropolis is laughable and ignorant. I'm sure Zod is going to be a totally moron and not exploit Superman's weakness. I'm sure Zod is a total idiot and will just follow Superman out of metropolis.


So Superman was put into a difficult situation that should be almost impossible to figure out. But you know why it's exactly something he should be capable of? Because he's Superman, impossible is what he does. How can you be a fan of the character and not understand that about him?

Also, it's not just about Zod killing people but Superman actively contributing to it. For example, Zod kicked a truck at Clark and he casually dodges and lets another building (A parking garage) get destroyed as a result. Like what the hell is that about? It looked cool but a few scared cowering civilians were probably killed as a result.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Also, as far as death toll goes, yes MoS has the most. If it had anything less I would have been disappointing. We saw the technology that Kryptonians posses and how many "Supermen" they have. I can't see realistically how you can expect death tolls, or damage to be low when the only thing that can beat them is a guy who at most can barely beat one other Kryptonian 1 vs 1. I'm sorry you feel so hurt that Superman while fighting 2 Kryptonians wasn't able to do everything he can to throw his opponents anywhere else. It's not like if he had thrown him in a building no one would have died, right?roll eyes (sarcastic) It's not like Superman didn't tell people to run/hide. It's not like I expect you to have common sense and believe that the residents of Metropolis and Smallvile don't have an idea about taking cover, shelter, or trying leaving the area. It's not like Avengers where a Police Officer trained (IN NYC NO LESS) , doesn't have a F&&^ING CLUE what to do in case of an emergency. I'm sure TOTALLY that he can't follow procedures about what to do in case of an attack, like you know, evaluating citizens, or taking perimeter around anomaly. I totally get that Captain American, a man who was frozen in ice for over 50 years knows and has more common sense than a Police Officer on evacuating citizen eek!

Spoon fed much?


So Superman preserving lives in a situation where no one else probably could would be disappointing? Are you a fan of the powers or the character?

Now you're just rambling nonsense because you're upset I disagree with you. Superman wasn't nonchalant about human lives but he was extremely reckless for someone with his type of power. This isn't really debatable.

Compare that to the Avengers who spent the entire movie minimizing collateral damage and containing it to evacuated zones, Superman looks like an out of control child.


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 11:16 PM
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Zack Fair
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up I was about to make some of the same points. Superman had to stop Zod, or else Zod was going to kill every single human on earth(by his own accord.) 100,000 humans may have died as a result of their battle(remember, that is just speculation at this point), but even if 500,000 humans died, that is still vastly better than the alternative of 7 BILLION deaths which would have resulted from not fighting/killing Zod then and there.

It seems like people are quick to whine/nitpick before they consider context. Supes did what he had to do in that situation-- lets not act like Zod and his goons would have obliged had Superman said in the midst of battle: "Excuse me... Would you chaps mind taking our fight to a remote location several thousand miles from here? I doant wunt ne peeple 2 git hert!"

If you guys want a 'wholesome' Superman, then go watch every other Superman film that's been made. thumb down
thumb up


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2013 11:42 PM
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xJLxKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How are you comparing innocent people of different nationality to Frost Giants (Soldiers I might add) and Chitauri Robot soldier drones?
Chitauri could have been brainwashed, or whatever. They are still part of the damage.
quote:


Yes, Clark was extremely reckless in this movie with how he fought. He at times actively diverted combat into populated zones.

I don't understand how Superman watching his father die to preserve his secret changes this.

See it all goes back to this belief that you think Superman had the ability to divert fights where he wants against people who are his equals if not superiors. I can understand if they are weaker, in which case, I'd agree with you. But his enemies were his superiors in everything but flight.

quote:


So Superman was put into a difficult situation that should be almost impossible to figure out. But you know why it's exactly something he should be capable of? Because he's Superman, impossible is what he does. How can you be a fan of the character and not understand that about him?

laughing out loud Yes, except this movie is suppose to show you a little of the dark side. It's more realistic. Seriously, just watch Superman Returns. Superman saves metropolis as it was being destroyed. He reverts some gas lines, catches the daily planet, and burns the glass/debris in one block. YUP, that is realistic. Only one block experienced glass breaking roll eyes (sarcastic) Keep in mind, he was able to do this because he had no enemy
quote:


Also, it's not just about Zod killing people but Superman actively contributing to it. For example, Zod kicked a truck at Clark and he casually dodges and lets another building (A parking garage) get destroyed as a result. Like what the hell is that about? It looked cool but a few scared cowering civilians were probably killed as a result.

I'm sure all of the citizens were cowering behind in the apartments. Not like you know, they ran, or got evacuated like what most people would probably do. Also, did you see anyone die there? I'm sure you didn't, but you assume they did. Can I assume that people died during the invasion of Chitauri?

quote:

So Superman preserving lives in a situation where no one else probably could would be disappointing? Are you a fan of the powers or the character?
I'm a fan. A big fan, and I know the character more than you can know. Yet, I don't see that being crazy. Sure, it works in comics, but in comics, there is a reason for it. The movie had other reasons. That's not what this argument is about
quote:

Now you're just rambling nonsense because you're upset I disagree with you. Superman wasn't nonchalant about human lives but he was extremely reckless for someone with his type of power. This isn't really debatable.
No, it's just that he was too reckless because you are looking at this movie as a comic book
quote:

Compare that to the Avengers who spent the entire movie minimizing collateral damage and containing it to evacuated zones, Superman looks like an out of control child. [/B]
laughing out loud Yes, we didn't see no one die. The Chitauri were soo idiotic to attack a planet who contain Hydrogen Bombs. I'm sorry that a race of beings who live god knows where, with god knows what kind of technology have no weapon that is considered in the category as WOMD. Never mind that Avengers had Superman beat in number of members and the type of enemy they had. After all, it's not like the enemy possessed weapons close to Kryptonians or Hulk for that matter; not like they had anything but some people on scooters. roll eyes (sarcastic) Not like they had weapons that can changed the planet's gravitational pull, or atmosphere

NO, Avengers is about strong gods, Heroes, and Hulk who fight Aliens sooo advanced that they didn't have any WOMD. It was about a group of heroes who COMMAND A POLICE OFFICER and direct him on HOW to evacuate people during an attack. Because, it's not like NYC didn't experience that before or still for that matter. Avengers is your comic book adaption, it follows guidelines much like comic books, which is why is why you like it more. I like movies more darker and realistic; those that show a things a bit more darker.


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Last edited by xJLxKing on Jun 26th, 2013 at 12:39 AM

Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 12:27 AM
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-Pr-
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I didn't read most of the thread, though I assume that my viewpoint isn't going to be one that many share.

I think people are going WAY overboard with this "he's not really Superman because Superman would have saved all of those people".

The **** he would. The fact that he saved the world AT ALL makes him Superman, imo.

The guy had just learned how to fly. He'd never even been in a fight before, and he was being tasked with fighting off an invasion by highly trained beings that were able to physically harm him. He had all of a few days before he was forced in to combat, and he was still learning how to use his powers in a combat situation, as he'd never been forced to use them in that manner before.

Also, the destruction, the world engine etc? If they're going to make the danger big enough so that real stakes are involved, then people are going to die. They have to convey the fact that if this guy fails, he won't get a second chance. World goes boom. We're all ****ed, and only Superman can save us. They did that, imo.

There's also the point that before Superman even fought Zod, people had been evacuating the site around the ship in Metropolis. Sure, some people would have died, but I think it's being ridiculously overstated.

This is a Superman that's only started. Superman wasn't born refusing to kill, or believing in the sanctity of life. He had to learn the value of such things during his education. The only reason "current" comic Superman is able to perform these insane feats of saving everyone and stopping the villain at the same time is because he learned how to do it. He has years of experience doing it.

This guy doesn't. He will get there, but Superman isn't Superman if his beliefs and morals aren't built on experience and hard lessons he'd learned.

In fact, the end of the movie could very well BE the catalyst for him becoming that guy, even if he had a vague idea already.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 01:14 AM
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thumb up **** yeah, PR. Took the words out of my mouth.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 01:49 AM
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lol, when I saw your name on the thread, for some reason I was so sure you'd disagree with me. I'm glad you didn't, though.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 01:57 AM
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roughrider
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People wanting a Superman who never fails to save anyone...there's lots of Grant Morrison comics for you to read. That's his idealization of what the character is - I think this film is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Superman does triumph, but there's lots of collateral damage. That's part of the (necessary) new realism he needs for the movies, now.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 02:56 AM
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SquallX
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For the people that's bitching about Superman not being in character, it seems that they've never read anything about the original Superman. Am talking Schuster and Siegel here.

There Superman, the original version was a no nonsense guy, he'll let a bad guy walk to there deaths or threaten and carries out said threats if they didn't confess.

I honestly don't know why people ***** about such mundane things. It's okay for other Superheroes to be reckless, but when it's Superman, people gets butt hurt with no real backing.

Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 03:01 AM
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Rage.Of.Olympus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Chitauri could have been brainwashed, or whatever. They are still part of the damage.

See it all goes back to this belief that you think Superman had the ability to divert fights where he wants against people who are his equals if not superiors. I can understand if they are weaker, in which case, I'd agree with you. But his enemies were his superiors in everything but flight.


laughing out loud Yes, except this movie is suppose to show you a little of the dark side. It's more realistic. Seriously, just watch Superman Returns. Superman saves metropolis as it was being destroyed. He reverts some gas lines, catches the daily planet, and burns the glass/debris in one block. YUP, that is realistic. Only one block experienced glass breaking roll eyes (sarcastic) Keep in mind, he was able to do this because he had no enemy

I'm sure all of the citizens were cowering behind in the apartments. Not like you know, they ran, or got evacuated like what most people would probably do. Also, did you see anyone die there? I'm sure you didn't, but you assume they did. Can I assume that people died during the invasion of Chitauri?

I'm a fan. A big fan, and I know the character more than you can know. Yet, I don't see that being crazy. Sure, it works in comics, but in comics, there is a reason for it. The movie had other reasons. That's not what this argument is about
No, it's just that he was too reckless because you are looking at this movie as a comic book
laughing out loud Yes, we didn't see no one die. The Chitauri were soo idiotic to attack a planet who contain Hydrogen Bombs. I'm sorry that a race of beings who live god knows where, with god knows what kind of technology have no weapon that is considered in the category as WOMD. Never mind that Avengers had Superman beat in number of members and the type of enemy they had. After all, it's not like the enemy possessed weapons close to Kryptonians or Hulk for that matter; not like they had anything but some people on scooters. roll eyes (sarcastic) Not like they had weapons that can changed the planet's gravitational pull, or atmosphere

NO, Avengers is about strong gods, Heroes, and Hulk who fight Aliens sooo advanced that they didn't have any WOMD. It was about a group of heroes who COMMAND A POLICE OFFICER and direct him on HOW to evacuate people during an attack. Because, it's not like NYC didn't experience that before or still for that matter. Avengers is your comic book adaption, it follows guidelines much like comic books, which is why is why you like it more. I like movies more darker and realistic; those that show a things a bit more darker.


The Chitauri were akin to automated drones, once the Mothership was taken out, they were deactivated. Also, the Chitauri were under Loki's command to conquer humanity, not destroy it.

So you're criticizing the Avengers for being too unrealistic? That's a small price to pay for my heroes to be, well, heroic. The Avenger's had excellent action and was tons of fun without compromising anything.

I guess you just hold Superman to lower standards then I do. While a regular person or even another hero would be put in an impossible situation, I expect Superman to triumph. You seem to think I have a problem with body counts, I don't. People die, it's fine but I do have a serious problem with Superman not doing his very best to prevent deaths.

My problem is that Superman didn't even try to get Zod out of the city, it didn't even seem to cross his mind. I don't expect him to be perfect but I expect him to be Superman. erm

You don't have to be experienced to know that two Kryptonians fighting in a populated area will be dangerous. And while that might be an acceptable mistake for someone else, it isn't for Superman. That's why he is who he is, he holds himself to higher standards than anyone else.

Christ, everyone is so cynical nowadays and so obsessed with realism. I'm sorry that I went to a comic book movie based on Superman and expected to leave uplifted.


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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Jun 26th, 2013 at 03:29 AM

Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 03:24 AM
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Zack M
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SquallX
For the people that's bitching about Superman not being in character, it seems that they've never read anything about the original Superman. Am talking Schuster and Siegel here.

There Superman, the original version was a no nonsense guy, he'll let a bad guy walk to there deaths or threaten and carries out said threats if they didn't confess.

I honestly don't know why people ***** about such mundane things. It's okay for other Superheroes to be reckless, but when it's Superman, people gets butt hurt with no real backing.


thumb up

And Batman used guns back in the day as well.

Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 04:28 AM
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JakeTheBank
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Kinda feel both sides have made some good points.

Superman killing Zod doesn't bother me; he's killed before in comics and will probably kill again. But the scope of collateral damage was...high. That scene where Superman saves that soldier mid fall? That was great. I would have loved even one more scene of Superman saving random strangers mid fight with Zod in Metropolis. Or even a short scene of Superman using x-ray vision to punch Zod toward deserted buildings, explicitly fighting away from human beings.

All that said...I do like Synder's intent. He wants to show why Superman feels the way he does and wants to have him experience loss and even failure so that he'll do and be better. Like Pr said, a lot of us are used to the virtually infallible Superman in comics, and while I'd like to see that portrayed on the big screen, I do think him not getting a perfect "victory" does him credit. He lost a lot in that movie; his parents, his home world, his adopted father, and the last connection to his race by his own hand. And that does humanize him.

Problem with that is that a lot of fans of the character don't want him to be relatable and want instead for him to be the inspirational godlike entity who's the medium's greatest hero. I think New 52 Superman is a good blueprint for that happy balance, actually. He is heroic and is an inspiration to others, including heroes. But he's a very human and relatable person. Man of Steel's not quite there, but I think he will be given the sequel and follow up films.

And on a side note: phuck "realism" in comic book movies. Unless you're the Punisher, Batman, or another "street" character - and even then, realism is shot out of the window - if you're going to a superhero comic book film for something realistic, you're going to be disappointed.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 04:33 AM
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Bentley
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Problem with that is that a lot of fans of the character don't want him to be relatable


I'm pretty sure this is false, at best people are hesitant of using cheap narrative to push humanity down the character's throat at the expense of what makes it unique. Lets remember than Superman Returns gave him a frigging son.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 09:28 AM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Kinda feel both sides have made some good points.
As I mentioned in prior posts / other threads, I can see why some did not like this "non cheery" version of Supes.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
if you're going to a superhero comic book film for something realistic, you're going to be disappointed.
Speaking for myself, I was not, and I found this portrayal to be as realistic as one could probably get for this subject matter. It doesn't approach Bale's Batman (for obvious reasons), but it is less comic-booky than Chris Reeve's spin.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 10:35 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Chitauri were akin to automated drones, once the Mothership was taken out, they were deactivated. Also, the Chitauri were under Loki's command to conquer humanity, not destroy it.

So you're criticizing the Avengers for being too unrealistic? That's a small price to pay for my heroes to be, well, heroic. The Avenger's had excellent action and was tons of fun without compromising anything.

I guess you just hold Superman to lower standards then I do. While a regular person or even another hero would be put in an impossible situation, I expect Superman to triumph. You seem to think I have a problem with body counts, I don't. People die, it's fine but I do have a serious problem with Superman not doing his very best to prevent deaths.

My problem is that Superman didn't even try to get Zod out of the city, it didn't even seem to cross his mind. I don't expect him to be perfect but I expect him to be Superman. erm

You don't have to be experienced to know that two Kryptonians fighting in a populated area will be dangerous. And while that might be an acceptable mistake for someone else, it isn't for Superman. That's why he is who he is, he holds himself to higher standards than anyone else.

Christ, everyone is so cynical nowadays and so obsessed with realism. I'm sorry that I went to a comic book movie based on Superman and expected to leave uplifted.


It isn't about realism or being gritty, it's about believability.

Superman starting out, even in the comics, wasn't this perfect "I save everyone, beat the villain and be home in time for corn flakes" kind of guy. that took years of training and experience to achieve.

You keep saying that he isn't Superman. You're right; he's not. because the Superman you're talking about is something that he becomes over time.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 12:53 PM
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Rage.Of.Olympus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
It isn't about realism or being gritty, it's about believability.

Superman starting out, even in the comics, wasn't this perfect "I save everyone, beat the villain and be home in time for corn flakes" kind of guy. that took years of training and experience to achieve.

You keep saying that he isn't Superman. You're right; he's not. because the Superman you're talking about is something that he becomes over time.


Why are you holding Superman to the same standards as a normal person? He's not allowed to make the same mistakes, he can't. Not with that kind of power. That's a big point of his character.

Did I not say that Superman isn't perfect? He never was, I'm not new to the character, I've read quite a bit about him which is why I'm saying what I did. I don't have a problem with it being extremely hard for him, I just don't like him.....not even trying. Like Jake said, an X-ray vision building sweeping scene would have been perfect.

Well, a lot of damage was done and many people were killed for him to reach that point. I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it stains his image to me.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 02:52 PM
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