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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Tulak Hord--How powerful is he, really?


Tulak Hord--How powerful is he, really?
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Nephthys
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Guess which one I like more.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2013 10:58 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I tend to prefer the Force as depicted in TCW, which is more liberal than the Force in the OT, but people aren't leveling temples, playing tug-o'-war with black holes, or blowing up starfleets.
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Old Post Oct 23rd, 2013 04:31 AM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I tend to prefer the Force as depicted in TCW, which is more liberal than the Force in the OT, but people aren't leveling temples, playing tug-o'-war with black holes, or blowing up starfleets.


The greater the Force power, the more it seems to eclipse the personal development and integrity of the character in some ways. I believe characters in SW should be interesting despite not being particularly powerful or in spite of it. Han Solo, Chewie, Leia, Wedge and Lando were interesting characters who (at the time in Leia's case) did not particularly kick ass or obviously display Force powers. Those who did in the OT were very mild and the emphasis was on the story, not the special effects.

Fast-forward to the PT era, and most of the visual media is chock-full of needless CGI, overdone fights (Yoda's fighting in AotC is in hindsight atrociously done) and non-Force using characters are pretty non-existent. Padme? She is stupid. Jar-Jar? No. Uh... who else exists in the PT that isn't a Force user of note? Like no one. Even Grievous is a footnote in the Clone Wars history, overshadowed by the likes of minor Force deities Opress, Maul, and Ventress.


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Old Post Oct 23rd, 2013 06:05 PM
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Q99
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One other thing that makes the video game characters tougher to compare to non- there's more tiers.

You can have "A stomps B stomps C stomps D stomps E, but E's still supposed to be really powerful," chains, while in other stuff, by the time you're four stomp tiers from the top, you're pretty low down and well out of the big badass zone. It's like the 'roughly equal' band is smaller in TOR or such.


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Old Post Oct 25th, 2013 12:11 AM
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Petrus
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That's why it's much better to judge a character by feats and not by statements of their power, although sometimes these statements cannot be ignored.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2013 04:46 PM
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Q99
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The statements of power aren't the problem. Character fights are feats, and by feats there's just a different number of tiers / it takes larger/smaller amounts of skill to stomp in different eras.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2013 06:43 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Another big problem is limited exposure; it's a lot easier for some people to say X is better because X has more fights under his or her belt, or is visibly faster (due to media differences).

But then sometimes statements of power are one-sided too. For example, "Anakin is the strongest Force user ever" is accepted at face value by a lot of people in this community, but Anakin hasn't displayed Force powers on the scale of say, DE Sidious, DE Luke, Exar Kun or Revan. His stalemate against Obi-Wan is all the more confusing as well.

However, with similar statements such as "darkest power in the universe", "the most powerful of the most powerful", are dismissed out of hand due to either bias or lack of media exposure. Or in some cases just because people don't like the character.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2013 07:00 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But then sometimes statements of power are one-sided too. For example, "Anakin is the strongest Force user ever" is accepted at face value by a lot of people in this community, but Anakin hasn't displayed Force powers on the scale of say, DE Sidious, DE Luke, Exar Kun or Revan. His stalemate against Obi-Wan is all the more confusing as well.


His stalemate against Obi-wan is something I don't find confusing- in movie and CGI clone wars, he's one tier down, and his style and familiarity gives him rock-paper-scissors like advantage against Anakin.


On the flip side, in the video games, you can have a massive Jedi killer like Sion, be solidly outmatched by the Exile, who's in turn well outmatch by Nyrss, who's outmatched by Revan, who's outmatched by Vitiate.

TOR's 5 tiers represent a range of power that in TCW and prequel trilogy would represent in 2-3 tiers.


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Last edited by Q99 on Oct 28th, 2013 at 07:18 PM

Old Post Oct 28th, 2013 07:15 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
His stalemate against Obi-wan is something I don't find confusing- in movie and CGI clone wars, he's one tier down, and his style and familiarity gives him rock-paper-scissors like advantage against Anakin.


On the flip side, in the video games, you can have a massive Jedi killer like Sion, be solidly outmatched by the Exile, who's in turn well outmatch by Nyrss, who's outmatched by Revan, who's outmatched by Vitiate.

TOR's 5 tiers represent a range of power that in TCW and prequel trilogy would represent in 2-3 tiers.


I don't think you quite understand though. Anakin's raw Force potential is supposed to be off of the charts, exceeding Yoda's by Qui-Gon's own determination. Within the movie-only canon, he peerless. His defeat of Dooku is typically chalked up to superior swordplay and strength due to his Force power, even though Dooku routinely manhandles Obi-Wan in the Force.

So why then is Obi-Wan able to hold his own in a direct Force push? There's no canon precedent for this making sense, given that Anakin's outperformed Obi-Wan in this area many times.

It's not the issue of fewer tiers; it's of tiers being so muddled on all sides it makes a clear, linear power chain pretty much impossible.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2013 07:53 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]I don't think you quite understand though. Anakin's raw Force potential is supposed to be off of the charts, exceeding Yoda's by Qui-Gon's own determination. Within the movie-only canon, he peerless. His defeat of Dooku is typically chalked up to superior swordplay and strength due to his Force power, even though Dooku routinely manhandles Obi-Wan in the Force.


So why then is Obi-Wan able to hold his own in a direct Force push? There's no canon precedent for this making sense, given that Anakin's outperformed Obi-Wan in this area many times.


Because you don't need to be exactly equal to someone in an area to defend against it. There's multiple cases of this happening, Obi-wan defended against Dooku's lightning on occasion too. I'd say Obi-wan has focused his force skills more on defense and, if he can sufficiently anticipate an attack, hold off a stronger one.


That's rather my point- in some SW stuff, someone can be stronger but still not overwhelm the weaker one a good deal of the time. In other stuff, the same strength difference is more overwhelming.


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Old Post Oct 29th, 2013 09:36 AM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Because you don't need to be exactly equal to someone in an area to defend against it. There's multiple cases of this happening, Obi-wan defended against Dooku's lightning on occasion too. I'd say Obi-wan has focused his force skills more on defense and, if he can sufficiently anticipate an attack, hold off a stronger one.


That's rather my point- in some SW stuff, someone can be stronger but still not overwhelm the weaker one a good deal of the time. In other stuff, the same strength difference is more overwhelming.


The idea of Obi-Wan being more defensive in general makes sense, but he was instantly overpowered by Dooku and struggled but ultimately stalemated Anakin. Again, this raises a concern about how this can be, unless Anakin had you know, leaked his Force strength out when he was stabbing Jedi earlier.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2013 08:45 PM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Another big problem is limited exposure; it's a lot easier for some people to say X is better because X has more fights under his or her belt, or is visibly faster (due to media differences).


The best approach is to draw from feats and accolades.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But then sometimes statements of power are one-sided too. For example, "Anakin is the strongest Force user ever" is accepted at face value by a lot of people in this community, but Anakin hasn't displayed Force powers on the scale of say, DE Sidious, DE Luke, Exar Kun or Revan. His stalemate against Obi-Wan is all the more confusing as well.


Anakin isn't the strongest Force user ever; only potentially. That a character is the recipient of numerous accolades and doesn't have the feats to match isn't really sufficient grounds to dismiss the accolade. Revan is a prime example of that: besides one or two impressive feats in the book, he's really done nothing special on-screen or in-text despite being one of the most openly fapped characters. Doesn't mean he's a weak feeb either.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
However, with similar statements such as "darkest power in the universe", "the most powerful of the most powerful", are dismissed out of hand due to either bias or lack of media exposure. Or in some cases just because people don't like the character.


Don't forget about the numerous times Palpatine's been called "the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Old Post Oct 31st, 2013 01:32 AM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea of Obi-Wan being more defensive in general makes sense, but he was instantly overpowered by Dooku and struggled but ultimately stalemated Anakin. Again, this raises a concern about how this can be, unless Anakin had you know, leaked his Force strength out when he was stabbing Jedi earlier.


Personally I take that as Dooku being quicker with and having more finesse in the force.

He got Obi-wan with the force, but not in a force push-off, rather before Obi-wan raised a defense.


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Old Post Oct 31st, 2013 11:17 AM
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Lord Stark
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hord's lightsaber mastery was always a big issue, since he did not fit into the canon at the time. But then again, KotOR screwed up a lot of established canon. It takes place like 40 some years after The Sith Wars, yet everything looks different and none of the characters from that earlier property even make a live appearance.


Fortunately this was retconned by having Vandar and Arca Jeth debating in the Noeticon of Secrets.


Also the galaxy is a big place, you never even reach Coruscant in KOTOR where most of those characters would have been.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2013 11:53 AM
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Jmanghan
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So we need this again, apparently.


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Beniboybling
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possibly Sirak tier, maybe above.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2016 03:32 PM
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Ursumeles
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I don't see what put's him above Dreypa, let alone Muur, Sadow or even Ragnos tbh.


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UCanShootMyNova
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
possibly Sirak tier, maybe above.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2016 03:57 PM
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Azronger
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It all depends in your viewpoint:

If you take all the hype at face value and highball it, then I'd say he's in the gap between Ventress and Dooku. If you lowball it, he's somewhat below Ventress.

You can also ignore the hype altogether, and focus in his sole on-screen feat. If you highball it, he's unchained Vaylin-level. If you lowball it, he might as well be featless.

If you ignore the feat because it happened during gameplay, he is featless, and the only thing going for him is logical deductions based on his title as the strongest of his time. So he's about your average Dark Lord of the Sith-level.


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MythLord
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Haazen level.


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