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Nu52 Superman's power
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

I'm not asking that he be the most powerful guy in every book, but at least have some consistency with the established reboot.


erm

In other words, you're asking that Superman be portrayed as the most powerful guy in every book,
since, if he isn't, that would be inconsistent?



Pr, how exactly were we shown anything inconsistent with the established reboot?

Have you forgotten that Superman got tossed around by his little 15 year old cousin the first time he encountered her (Supergirl #1)?

Despite the fact that she had nearly zero fight experience
and was only trying to get away from him as he talked at her?

Why should Clark fare so much better now against 2 opponents who are (presumably)
older and bigger and stronger and more experienced and deliberately intent on taking Clark down
(Superman/Wonder Woman #5)
-- while he tries more or less the same "talk to resolve" approach?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-


There's nothing wrong with making Diana look good.


We agree there.






This represents arguably the first "A" list showing I've seen from the woman in the entire reboot.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/69dm5z.jpg

Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 11:56 PM
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-Pr-
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Location: Ireland.

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I don't think Superman should be the most powerful person in every book, no.

I think his powers and abilities should be kept consistent, though. At the same level established at the start of the reboot (albeit once we saw him grow up in Morrison's book).

Supergirl is nice and all, but she's not on his level. One showing doesn't change that, imo.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 03:10 AM
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emporerpants
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I'll tell you what, I wouldn't have had a problem with that last showing if they didn't make Supes look so completely pathetic. There is nothing wrong with making Wondy look good. But you don't have to do it at Supes's expense. Just like you don't have to make Supes look good at WW's expense. That last showing was borderline spiteful. Seriously, Supes got beat down, looked like a moron, got his arm broke, and got held hostage.

Blue, if all of that happened to WW and Superman showed up to save her so effortlessly how would that make you feel? Seriously, switch Superman and WonderWoman in that scenario and think about it. It would be BS right? I'd agree with you that it would be BS. So it is just as much BS when they do it to Superman.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 03:44 PM
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-Pr-
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I've sat and read the comic a couple of times now, so my summary is as follows:

There is nothing wrong with Zod being more skilled in h2h than Superman.

There is nothing wrong with Faora being more skilled in h2h than Superman.

There is nothing wrong with Diana being more skilled in h2h than Superman.

All make sense, as does Zod beating Superman due to being trained more comprehensively, if it's a hand to hand fight. But this isn't a hand to hand fight alone.

What I don't like, is how useless Superman has been portrayed as. He's had training. He has super senses, and he is stronger than Diana, and yet this all gets forgotten because the writer needs to make Diana look good.

They're supposed to be partners. They're supposed to be complimenting each other with their abilities.

Instead, the comic comes across as a blatant "you get to be the best this week" kind of thing, instead of making it about them working TOGETHER, and that's what I don't like.

The dialogue, especially for Superman, is just bad. Really bad. Very ooc, and Soule shows that he's yet another writer that, imo, doesn't know how to write an adult relationship.

Seriously, is Johns the only person still at DC that knows how to write a couple?

As boastful as it seems, I truly believe I'd do a better job than Soule, and that I'd do both Diana and Clark more credit than he is right now.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 05:18 PM
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Bentley
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You would also write a better Lois than most of the retarded writers that had gotten their hands on Action Comics over the ages

It's called caring about the characters.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 05:55 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bentley
You would also write a better Lois than most of the retarded writers that had gotten their hands on Action Comics over the ages

It's called caring about the characters.


thumb up

Pretty much.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 06:11 PM
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emporerpants
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Great summation Pr. I agree with you 100%.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 06:18 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by emporerpants
I'll tell you what, I wouldn't have had a problem with that last showing if they didn't make Supes look so completely pathetic. There is nothing wrong with making Wondy look good. But you don't have to do it at Supes's expense. Just like you don't have to make Supes look good at WW's expense. That last showing was borderline spiteful. Seriously, Supes got beat down, looked like a moron, got his arm broke, and got held hostage.

Blue, if all of that happened to WW and Superman showed up to save her so effortlessly how would that make you feel? Seriously, switch Superman and WonderWoman in that scenario and think about it. It would be BS right? I'd agree with you that it would be BS. So it is just as much BS when they do it to Superman.




Problem is, I don't have to imagine any such thing at all ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi60.tinypic.com/35byzau.jpg

Source: Superman / Wonder Woman #2, Volume 1
Writer: Charles Soule
Penciller: Tony S. Daniel
Official release: January 2014
Actual release: November 2013
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nor did I notice so much as a word from you in protest when that did happen.

Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 11:10 PM
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-Pr-
...

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Two wrongs don't make a right.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 11:53 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Two wrongs don't make a right.



1) If it's morality you want to argue, consider stopping by my Luciferian thread sometime. Especially if you have moderator editing privileges. With the help of someone like yourself, I could probably pare it down from a 7 page thread to one of 3 or less that makes considerably more sense due to tighter organization.


2) Relating to your above quote, erring on opposite ends brings some much needed balance.

They can also spark a discussion that sheds light about the real problems that exist.


You worry about Superman losing his #1 spot, for instance.
Until recently, I wondered if Diana could legitimately be considered relevant in the current DCnU.

What did she do in the first year to even justify membership in the JLA for the first year of this company-wide reboot?

Happily, for whatever reason, she's getting somewhat of a spotlight now.

Perhaps because DC plans soon to promote her live action film?

Seems to be the start of an effort, at least ...

Old Post Feb 15th, 2014 01:23 AM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1) If it's morality you want to argue, consider stopping by my Luciferian thread sometime. Especially if you have moderator editing privileges. With the help of someone like yourself, I could probably pare it down from a 7 page thread to one of 3 or less that makes considerably more sense due to tighter organization.


2) Relating to your above quote, erring on opposite ends brings some much needed balance.

They can also spark a discussion that sheds light about the real problems that exist.


You worry about Superman losing his #1 spot, for instance.
Until recently, I wondered if Diana could legitimately be considered relevant in the current DCnU.

What did she do in the first year to even justify membership in the JLA for the first year of this company-wide reboot?

Happily, for whatever reason, she's getting somewhat of a spotlight now.

Perhaps because DC plans soon to promote her live action film?

Seems to be the start of an effort, at least ...


I can't edit that thread sadly. I have been meaning to reply to the last post you made to me, though.

you can have balance without making both of them look bad, which is my point all along.


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Old Post Feb 15th, 2014 01:57 AM
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emporerpants
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Blue, I'm a Superman fan, not a WonderWoman fan. Why didn't YOU protest that? I didn't see you complaining about it. If I did I'd agree with you, because it was BS that that happened to WW. As Pr. said though, two wrongs don't make a right, and in that instance Supes didn't swoop in and effortlessly stomp Doomsday. Still though, it was total crap that that happened to WW. I agree with you 100%. The difference is, I don't think either poor showing should have happened, while you seem to think the Superman one is perfectly fine.


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Old Post Feb 15th, 2014 01:31 PM
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Rao Kal El
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Its ok.

superman is made to look like a chump from time to time, especially around reboots.

But hey, at least is a way to make Diana useful somehow when she appears with superman.

At least this way she is not useless and can teach superman how to fight like a warrior.

Is like when Batman appears with Superman in a comic, you know Batman is useless when the guy he is helping can bench press the earth for five days, but still from time to time Batman has to be made usefull by the writer somehow.

That is why guys like Mcduffie had to weakness exploit Superman to let the others shine for a bit.


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Last edited by Rao Kal El on Feb 16th, 2014 at 06:20 AM

Old Post Feb 16th, 2014 06:17 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by emporerpants
Blue, I'm a Superman fan, not a WonderWoman fan.


confused

Superman fan?
On a Superman forum, no less?
H-how can this be???



quote: (post)
Originally posted by emporerpants
Why didn't YOU protest that? I didn't see you complaining about it. If I did I'd agree with you, because it was BS that that happened to WW.


1) Wonder Woman in this latest reboot has had far bigger problems than Doomsday.
2) There's no Wonder Woman forum on these boards in which TO make that complaint, whether I'm inclined to do so or not. Which, for the most part, I'm not.
3) Wonder Woman has always had crap durability relative to Kryptonians and other heralds. As you yourself pointed out, she didn't actually get HIT in any significant way in the fight with Faora and Zod. I expect it would be a very different story if she had. Frankly, I also expect that WILL happen, come next issue, and then you shall again be quite satisfied.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by emporerpants
I don't think either poor showing should have happened, while you seem to think the Superman one is perfectly fine.


Like Salsa, I'm quite alright with the latter, yes, despite the fact that Salsa, to judge from his collection (It's remarkable. Seriously.) is a far bigger Superman fan than yourself.


The problems are different. Salsa may be teasing me, but he's right: Wonder Woman is generally so poorly known for actually DOING anything in the DCU most people regard her as inconsequential. The reboot, until the present, hasn't really done much to change that.

Things SHOULD be to the point where a poor showing like that wouldn't matter.
That's not the case, because, unlike Superman, Wonder Woman is rarely if ever given any actual feats or good showings to counterbalance the bad.

It might be nice if I could convince myself DC was intent on changing that.

Might be ...

Old Post Feb 16th, 2014 10:29 AM
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emporerpants
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Blue, why the hostility? Seriously. I mentioned that I am a Superman fan because you said I should have championed WW's cause when she got screwed over. There's no need to respond in such a sarcastic and insulting manner.

Why should I champion her cause? I'm not a big fan of hers. That doesn't mean that I don't notice when she gets screwed over and think that it shouldn't happen. I'll let the WonderWoman fans fight that fight, doesn't mean I won't agree with or back them up though.


Also, For a few years now Superman has done nothing but get stomped over and over and over. This can't be denied. This is also a very poor treatment of the character. I'm not the only one who thinks this. While WW actually very rarely loses the fights in the comics. Also, why are you judging how WW looks solely in direct comparison to Supes? I don't see anyone saying "Yeah, I'm ok with making Supes look like a chump because now it balances things out for Green Lantern."

Also, how do you know how big of a Superman fan I am? Kindly withhold judgments like that. You have no idea how big of a fan I am, how many comics I own, and how much I love the character. So please stop using the size of someone's collection as an excuse to dismiss their opinion. That's quite rude and silly.


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Last edited by emporerpants on Feb 17th, 2014 at 02:16 PM

Old Post Feb 17th, 2014 02:11 PM
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Kryptoniano
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Its ok.

superman is made to look like a chump from time to time, especially around reboots.

But hey, at least is a way to make Diana useful somehow when she appears with superman.

At least this way she is not useless and can teach superman how to fight like a warrior.

Is like when Batman appears with Superman in a comic, you know Batman is useless when the guy he is helping can bench press the earth for five days, but still from time to time Batman has to be made usefull by the writer somehow.

That is why guys like Mcduffie had to weakness exploit Superman to let the others shine for a bit.


Very well said. cool

Old Post Mar 4th, 2014 09:00 AM
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emporerpants
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Supes just had an awesome feat. How he beat Doomsday was pretty incredible. smile


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Old Post May 14th, 2014 04:02 PM
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Diesldude
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by emporerpants
Supes just had an awesome feat. How he beat Doomsday was pretty incredible. smile


I am not trying to instigate or start an argument with blue.

But consider the following:

Doomsday overcomes WW's superior skill with brute strength. There has to be a substantial gap in strength between Doomsday and WW for DD to overcome WW's strength + superior skill.

WW's skill was enough to hang with and Zod's strength but was no match for Doomsday's strength, (Zod was no slouch in the skills department either).

Now consider what Superman did to that DD with his strength and strength alone. Doomsday was in the process of punching superman and superman grabbed his fists and pulled. Doomsday wouldn't just let superman tear him apart right? he must have resisted and his applied his strength which is considerably more than WW and opposed superman from pulling him apart. The brute strength was no match for superman because of what superman did, resisted DD opposing him and still tore him apart.

A great feat that puts an all out superman at the top of the food chain where strength is concerned.

Old Post May 21st, 2014 03:25 AM
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danielgamer
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actually

N52 Superman's power > Post Crisis/ Before Flashpoint Superman's power

Old Post May 23rd, 2014 03:19 AM
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panthergod
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Mmmmm not yet. He's stronger on average, not more powerful.

Old Post May 28th, 2014 03:59 AM
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