Also because they need Luke to have a worthy opponent so they hyped is powers in Dark Empire.
I would say Plagueis is the best because he was as good as Sidious and still had better brains.. Author of Darth Plagueis has left the death of Plagueis mysterious.
I know some Sidious fanboys will ridicule this.. but Sidious handed the body to the Muuns according to the novel, which is 100% canon.
Why they place him as #1: Gethzerion and Vitiate are based on him!!
Point 1: The Dark Side at Its Strongest
At the time of TPM era the balance Force was heavily offset towards the dark. In AOTC Mace Windu voiced his thoughts on the matter, stating that the Jedi's ability to feel the Force had diminished. The Jedi had remained unopposed for over a thousand years and had reached a level of power they'd never experienced before, not even before the Dark Jedi separated. This was the golden age of the Jedi now, they'd reached unprecedented heights, and it was Ramage who initiated their unprecedented fall, and his successors who persisted and intensified a fall that would allow Sidious full access to a pool never seen before, not even during the Golden Age. The Jedi's abilities to feel the Force had diminished, and each step Palpatine took towards completing the Grand Design gave him that much more power. This power reached its peak when victory was assured as soon as Anakin, the key to the Sith's success and destruction, was turned. That's where the "Unlimited POWAAA" came from. Even before Sidious' transformative experience, Mace Windu perceived his Palpatine persona as a shatter point to the entire Galaxy, further indicating him as being the sole being who could access all of the dark side in the galaxy. Darth Tyranus also perceived Sidious differently, as a black hole that had something aweful beyond its event horizon. Darkness beyond darkness.
Point 2:
Comparing Sidious to His Predecessors
The mightiest Sith were manifestations of the dark. Through the mythos, the Sidious complex was revealed as such: a son not born of this world, but of one personifying that of his father's nightmares. What separated this beast from the rest of his kind (Darth Bane, Tenebrae/Vitiate, Nihilus after the MSG), was his ability to conceal his true nature. One could never fathom the things that he was capable of, his true virility.
Darth Plagueis, who could literally feel midi-chlorians slowly begin to leave his future victims long before their deaths, could not sense this human's Force sensitivity at all. Plagueis didn't understand the true depth of his potential until he unleashed it, manifesting his hate in the slaughter of his entire family and their security guards in SWDP. The only other Sith or Jedi that displayed spontaneous development of advanced TK without any previous training what so ever were Bane, Zannah, and Vitiate. Zannah did so in a far more threatening situation than Palpatine's, not that she or Bane had demonstrated as great of a TK feat any way; however Tenebrae/Vitiate's feat in killing his adopted father and some more villagers later does stack up nicely to the warping of durasteel, especially considering he was able to feed on their dread and gain enough power to seize the planet and destroy a Sith Lord.
Sidious was the strongest of the strongest; he was stronger because he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. At birth Cosigna noticed that his strength was too great for that of an infant. In the process of being concealed, and suppressing the maniacal Sidious persona to befriend his enemies and learn their secrets, the true persona's hatred would fester and be all that more powerful because of it.
Point 3:
Strengthened By Death
Plagueis contemplated and eventually came to understand that that strength in the Force did not exempt one from being inept in the Force. Anakin's powers advanced at exponential rates, but we never saw him start manifesting dark side tendrils, draining the life out of opponents, or freezing his opponents with cryokenesis like C'boath or Kyp Durron. These are arcane applications of the Force, as are all the new powers Sidious develops in the DE Trilogy. He may have already had the raw power to tear the fabric of space-time with his dark side wormholes before DE, but he was too inept as a sorcerer to conjure them before he went to Chaos and was guided back again by the Sith Spirits (See, Empire's End). Although his arcane talents may have been improved by the death experience, The Emperor never displayed greater combative prowess or innate power during his battles in DE than did he in any of his pre-DE confrontations...:
Lightsaber combat:
Maul was in many ways more lethal than all but the best and most talented heroes of the Clone Wars. Maul got his chance to prove that Obi-Wan did not defeat him fair and square when he pummeled the Jedi Master in their second encounter. Maul and Savage were a pair that could cut down scores of mercenaries, Mandalorians, and entire groups of Jedi - and yet Palpatine could have killed them both with TK alone, but in his total confidence opted instead to best them in lightsaber combat, which he did while laughing. In the end Savage admitted his admiration for Maul as killer who'd always been innately better, despite that fact Sidious made Maul a joke in "Star Wars Episode I Journals, Darth Maul", using his TK to effortlessly snatch Maul's lightsaber before giving it back and proceeding to attack his humbled apprentice with such speed and efficiency that one mistake, one slight twitch would have meant Maul’s death. In his battle with Windu and three other Jedi Masters, Sidious was able to kill the first Jedi the moment he lost his focus, and effortlessly exploited the weaknesses in the forms of two more before engaging Windu who managed to super-conduct all the dark emotions that Sidious fed upon with his thrill of combat and light side emotions – the battle perpetuated in an endless cycle until Anakin broke Sidious’ concentration upon entering the fray. After becoming Galactic Emperor, Sidious continued to effortlessly destroy opponents in lightsaber combat. In "Star Wars: Dark Times 30: A Spark Remains, Part 3", Emperor Palpatine ordered five captured Jedi to be brought before him. Though exhausted after severe beatings and starvation, and surrounded by Red Guards and stormtroopers, the Jedi were not bound. Palpatine in fact handed each of them a lightsaber, and told them that the survivor would win their freedom. Instead of turning on each other, four of the Jedi attacked him; he cut three of them down simultaneously, leaving only a female Human and the Verpine Beyghor Sahdett. The latter chose to turn against the former in order to save his own life, and, in awe of Palpatine's unparalleled mastery of the Force, became the Emperor's servant. One final extra-ordinary exploit of Sidious' ability to kill with a lightsaber, according to the "Star Wars: Empire at War: Prima Official Game Guide", Sidious was able to slaughter hundreds of mutinous Bothans with his lightsaber blade on Bothawui. DE Palpatine had one exploit in lightsaber combat; quickly disarming a dark side influenced Luke Skyalker. Not too impressive considering he had access to all the energies on Byss to do so and, when removed from Byss's Nexus, Leia and Anakin's amp was sufficient enough to give Luke equal footing. This Luke was comparable to Zonakin when amped by Leia, but with the advantage of having already dueled the Emperor. Luke is later revealed to possess the Shatterpoint charism in FOTJ and displayed the ability of forum mimicry when quickly learning to beat Vader in single lightsaber after just one battle.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 13th, 2013 at 12:39 AM
Let’s start with the best showing, Yoda vs. Sidious. Yoda, who’d effortlessly disarmed Asajj Ventress, and beat her with TK without even fighting her, who single-handedly destroyed a battalion of super battle droids and their tanks as well, who made Darth Tyranus, the second most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy, whose only other Jedi rival was Mace Windu, retreat while even while being enhanced by the planet they fight on, as it was strong in the dark side (“Star Wars: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous”). In his battle with Yoda, the ROTS novelization described that the entire Senate Rotunda was filled with a tornado of senate pods flying at blurring speeds - and eventually in a Force battle Sidious' FL overcomes the ‘greatest foe of the dark that the galaxy had ever known’. The ROTS Novelization also describes Mace Windu as struggling to stop his lightsaber from going into his face due to the power of Sidious' Force lightning, the blade even began to bend back at him. Galen Marek, who could bring down a 1,600 meter long, gazillion ton Star Destroyer, was no match for the Emperor, even when the Emperor was unarmed, and the powerful martyr was destroyed by the burst of Sidious’ Force lightning. The Emperor on the other hand, along with even his robes, remained unscathed by the burst of powerful Force lightning. Darth Maul and Savage Oppress, two powerful Force users, were helplessly pinned against Sidious' TK in The Clone Wars: Season 3: The Lawless. In Star Wars: Empire Volume One: Betrayal Sidious was ambushed by close to thirty Storm Troopers, he let his Royal Guards kill 6 before their blasters made him spill his wine to avoid a bolt, and he dropped the other 24 Storm Troopers with his casual Force lightning. At one point in the Star Wars: Dark Times series Sidious is seen conductiing a Force storm ritual that causes a major lightning storm on Coruscant. In Empires at War, the battle of the 11th mission depicted Palpatine killing hundreds of Bothans with his Force lightning and lightsaber blade, and subjugated hundreds more after he brainwashed them with Force corrupt. In "Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter (2011)"; Mother Talzin, a Being who can teleport, torture Count Dooku with a Vodoo Doll, materialize matter from the spirit realm, create a giant Force field and zap a squadron of Droids down with magic green Force lightning, shape shift, and regenerate has sacrificed one of her own Nightsisters to gain ownership of Darth Maul to sell, and Sidious makes her give him up and gives her nothing. If a Mother Talzin fears Sidious, he must be truly powerful. The only Nightsister he feared was Gethzerion. On his home world of Byss, where he had access to a vast pool of dark side energy from the nexus he had created by dominating and feeding off its inhabitants' life essences, DE Palpatine was able dominate the mind of Luke Skywalker, shield himself against Leia using her TK to drop several tons of machinery upon his head like it was nothing, destroy Leia's lightsaber with a mere hand gesture before proceeding to zap her unconscious. This Sidious relied heavily upon his sorcery, when his imperfect clone body was deteriorating rapidly he managed to zap Leia unconscious once more, as well as kill a young Jedi with a more powerfully concentrated blast of FL, and ko a Jedi master with another before becoming too weak to defend himself. This was while he was away from his nexus on Byss. He was far stronger in the Force than Luke, but this same Luke was disarmed by Kyp Durron's cryokenesis, Force lightning, and dark side tendrils before having his soul removed by Exar Kun. Kyp proved to be a prodigy and Exar Kun had shown him long lost techniques. Note that he'd also been defeated by the Magickz of Tenenial, an average Witch of Dathomir prior to this, and even managed to sneak up and kill an even greater Nightsister while she was engaging the former. This Luke had encountered but was far outmatched by the likes of Gethzerion, an ancient Nightsister far more powerful than Mother Talzin, on par with Vitiate. So for this reborn Emperor to overpower the combined might of Luke and Leia (whom Luke had trained and fought beside against the Dark Jedi C'boath) is somewhat impressive, but mediocre considering they were able to cut him off from his access to the dark side when removed from the Nexus of the Emperor's Throne world of Byss.
Conclusion
We know that, when the Emperor died on the Death Star II, it was a far more dramatic burst than his other deaths, all the energy of the dark side was lost in that death, restoring balance to the Force. The area in space that he had died at was saturated by that burst of dark energy, leaving a nexus behind that would remain there for many years. Upon returning to the Endor moon, where he'd died, both Leia and Mara sensed his dark energies ("Star Wars: Dark Force Rising"). Sidious at the height of his power had complete access to a pool of power that represented more than a planet of Sith added to his essence, he had access to the dark side at its strongest point in history. That was greater than any Sith that went before him. Sure he was afraid to combat Plagueis, Yoda, and Gethzerion, but that was only because he did not know the full extent of their powers, and had created his Empire by exploiting weakness, without knowing the weaknesses, he is reluctant to engage enemies who might destroy him. Ultimately, he proved stronger than all of the non-deities in the mythos. After he died, he retained that great power, it even increased, but the dark side was no longer with him. The Sith Spirits brought his spirit from Chaos, in hopes that he would sit upon Vader's throne on Korriban. However, he opted instead to persist in retaking his Empire along with the Skywalker family using his new affinity for Sith magic. Though, he lost his power to grip the galaxy, and his influence on Korriban. Corrupting Byss and feeding off of its inhabitants failed to restore him when his clones had been sabotaged.
Immortality
It is possible that Sidious' corrupted form might not have aged in the 20 years that elapsed between ROTS and ROTJ. In an issue of Star Wars: Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison, a biological weapon was detonated and he was in ground zero, all his royal guards and storm troopers died immediately, when Vader found his body, he claimed that the Force would sustain him. Vader also proved incredibly resilient, as if his spirit would not leave his body on Mustufar. In the ROTS novel, Palpatine proclaimed that his new Empire would stand for 10,000 years, and we know from his "Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side" he had planned to rule as an immortal even directly after the founding of his Empire. There were many methods to immortality in the Star Wars mythos, some more effective than others, but those aren't as relevant to power as they are to skill over arcane arts. The heart of Graush made King Adas immortal, Nihilus retained his essence in his armor, Darth Krayt used Cade's Force healing technique, Darth Plagueis succeeded in using his midi-chlorians to heal him, etc. Because of that, Sidious' method of transferring his essence into clones is just another means; his inability to master Plagueis' Midi-chlorian manipulation has no bearing on his power, as he just wasn't concerned with that particular technique.
We know that greater strength in the Force translates to greater physical stats, and that Sidious' disfigurement did not impair him until he'd already died. It was hinted toward in "Heir to the Empire" and later confirmed in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" that great strength in the Force necessarily translates to increased longevity: Obi-wan admitted to Luke that his ability to maintain in spirit form, just after 5 years, had diminished entirely. Then the book quoted Yoda's "Strong am I in the Force, but not that strong." In the Courtship of Princess Leia, it was confirmed that Dathomirian which, known as Rell, possessed a stronger spirit increased her longevity by an extra 200 years. The spirit of Exar Kun was powerful enough to last for 5,000 years before ripping Luke's spirit from his body, an action Sidious considering according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and challenging the entire Jedi academy as a wraith before falling. Vitiate remained immortal for 1,500 years, hard to imagine how much energy his physical vessels possessed. However, if Sidious did possess more energy before his first death than Vitiate, than it is possible that he may very well have been able to hold on to his life for thousands of years.
It’s definitely between Gethzerion, Vitiate, and Sidious as far as non-deities are concerned. There are some powerful spirits; Bedlam>Ones>Abeloth. I believe, based on the fact that Meetra could have destroyed the Sith Emperor’s vessel in SWTOR: Revan, that it’s possible Sidious skill with a lightsaber might make up for his lack of power in a fully able clone on Byss. All Vitiate ever did that was impressive was purge Sith Councils, possible by exploiting there weaknesses – I say Sidious could win. Luke Skywalker as of FOTJ could defeat Sidious at any rate, Gethzerion and Vitiate as well. Abeloth usually got the upper hand on Grand Master Luke.
Really, we may see Sidious’ spirit again in the new Star Wars films according to some rumors…others state it may take place in the 80+ year gap between FOTJ and Legacy and will be about Luke naming the next Grand Master of the Jedi Order. I know the two stars will be characters Thomas and Rachel.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Plagueis was one of only three beings Sidious ever feared to contest in battle along with Gethzerion and Yoda. It is possible that Plagueis returns from Choas later on, he had the strength in the Force to last thousands of years, he was a mathematical killing machine and his rituals paved the way for Sidious to gain so much physical power. He would be a Sith that grows through creation and keeping his powers from being unbalanced. If he could pull it off, which would make a broken character honestly.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 13th, 2013 at 12:37 AM
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Even if Nihilus wasn't weakened by the death of Visas Marr, FoTJ Luke Skywalker could kill Darth Nihilus in direct combat the way he drove back Abeloth and destroyed her host bodies.
He'd moved a singularity before, an astronomically heavy object and apart of the Yuuzhan Vong fleet's arsenal, against Abeloth 25 years afterward he'd achieved such mastery of the light side that he could temporarily ignite himself with sufficient lightside energy to obliterate the weak flesh of her hosts despite her efforts to resist. Darth Nihilus armor wouldn't even fare that well, I'm afraid.
That's a Jedi.
Now Vitiate could in theory defeat Nihilus, and Sidious may really be more powerful than Vitiate or Nihilus seeing as how he corrupted the entire galaxy, bringing about the dark times, and had come back from death and fed off of the combined life force of billions of subjects on Byss. Nihilus could at least be challenged if not defeated by either these other two Sith on his caliber, Vitiate or Sidious.
Theoretically, Plagueis could have become a far more powerful master of the Force than any of these clowns with his scientific investigations of the Force. Greater even than Dorsk 81 while channeling the power of 30 Jedi, Kaiburr Crystal Luke, Kaiburr Crystal Vader, star-busting Naga Sadow in his Force-magnifying ship, Mortis Anakin, Son Anakin, Abeloth, the Ones on Mortis, the Bedlam Spirits, all pale comparison to the power of science.
__________________ "Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"
Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 15th, 2013 at 10:29 PM
Nov 11th, 2013 10:23 PM
Why they place him as #1: Gethzerion and Vitiate are based on him!!
Thanks Scribble!
