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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Revan vs The Hero of Tython


Who is the Ultimate Jedi?
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Revan 9 50.00%
The Hero of Tython 9 50.00%
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Revan vs The Hero of Tython
Started by: Nephthys

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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Beyond the beyond.


 

Shall I re-post, in the event of a crucial point being missed?


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:37 AM
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Nephthys
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Re-post? Huh?


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:39 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Registered: Aug 2013
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Lemme re-word that. Shall I quote myself, in the event of a crucial point being missed by Ares the Revanite? Ah **** it:


quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The notion that Vitiate would wish to weaken himself in any way by giving his power elsewhere before undergoing the most powerful ritual ever attempted is as ridiculous as thinking Revan>HoT. :trollface:

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:42 AM
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ares834
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Why would I address your point? You seemed to suggest it wasn't ridiculous at all and that Vitiate weakening himself was factual. :trollface:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope, case closed, I win. You did good, I did better wooooOOOoooooooo!

(also if he really couldn't touch it afterwards, how would it still be part of his full power? erm)

Also, it hasn't been proven that putting portions of his power in them actually diminishes his personal power permanently. Perhaps he simply puts the power in and then replenishes it like with every other Force use.


Since it was part of his soul/essence/whateveryouwannacallit I'm doubtful it would regenerate.

As for him being unable to touch it, it still is technically his power whether he was able to touch it not. After all, it is his "being".

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok...

In that the mental link with the Children is FAR deeper and stronger. Why would he be able to drain Revan with a link sustained by machines, but not with the Children who have his freakin essence inside them?????

Also, Vitiate still created the link in both cases, so I fail to see how the thing is sustained makes a lick of difference. [/B]


Because if they are they are different links then they can do very different things. Revan's link, for example, allowed him to manipulate Vitiate. Beyond that, Vitiate's link with Revan was noticeable to Revan. By contrast, the Children initially don't even know they are linked with him.


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Last edited by ares834 on Nov 20th, 2013 at 03:53 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:49 AM
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red8
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Registered: Aug 2013
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Revan wins by default.
Nothing past KotOR 2 ever happened.
The Sith Emperor doesn't exist.
Revan and Malak fell because the war took its toll on them.
Revan isn't a deadbeat dad that abandons Bastilla.
The Exile isn't a worthless sidekick.
no

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:50 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Beyond the beyond.


 

Nah I put the :trollface: in reference to you thinking Revan>=HoT. Answer it now, or perish to my godly guillotine.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:53 AM
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ares834
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Answer what? Why would he weaken himself? Simple, because he thought that getting spies among the Jedi Order was worth it.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 03:56 AM
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Nephthys
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But... he didn't. He only used the Children at a point where he no longer cared about the war with the Republic.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Since it was part of his soul/essence/whateveryouwannacallit I'm doubtful it would regenerate.

As for him being unable to touch it, it still is technically his power whether he was able to touch it not. After all, it is his "being".


~ESSENCES~. And that only applies to his ~essence~, not his power.

He doesn't possess it anymore. It isn't his.

This is pointless. As Supreme says, its ridiculous to think Vitiate would choose to diminish himself just to gain an advantage in a war he doesn't give a shit about. And its stated he didn't diminish himself flat out.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Because if they are they are different links then they can do very different things. Revan's link, for example, allowed him to manipulate Vitiate. Beyond that, Vitiate's link with Revan was noticeable to Revan. By contrast, the Children initially don't even know they are linked with him.


And you've offered no reason why them being 'different' would change anything. They are similar in the ways that matter. And no, the Children are well aware of being linked to him. Blaesus brags about sharing the mind of the Emperor. It's their unwitting hosts that are unaware. Again, a Child is basically a completely separate personality.

And again, I see no reason Revans link was different to theirs. They "shared" his thoughts, just like Revan did. If they'd wanted to manipulate him, they could theoretically attempt to.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 20th, 2013 at 04:08 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 04:05 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Beyond the beyond.


 

Why would Vitiate ever want to weaken himself? He didn't truly care about the war, he wanted to do his ritual for unlimatehd powah. He wouldn't weaken himself for such a ritual.

In any case, it's the first son who conceals the children.


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 04:06 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
~ESSENCES~. And that only applies to his ~essence~, not his power.

He doesn't possess it anymore. It isn't his.


Not sure I really see the difference. In Star Wars, the force essence seems to go hand in hand with power. And, the essence is his no matter who it is in.

It's like Sauron and the Ring. Sauron doesn't have access to the ring in LotR but it's still his power within it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is pointless. As Supreme says, its ridiculous to think Vitiate would choose to diminish himself just to gain an advantage in a war he doesn't give a shit about. And its stated he didn't diminish himself flat out.


U mad?

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't even know the true purpose of these Children yet. As the codex states, "Since the Emperor would not go to such elaborate lengths simply to create infiltrators in the Republic, the true purpose behind the children remains a mystery." Unless it's just referring to how he can make them his vessels...

Anyway, clearly he needed them for something very important and deemed it worth it. Ultimately, "if he didn't give a shit about the war" then he wouldn't have made them regardless.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
And you've offered no reason why them being 'different' would change anything. They are similar in the ways that matter. And no, the Children are well aware of being linked to him. Blaesus brags about sharing the mind of the Emperor. It's their unwitting hosts that are unaware. Again, a Child is basically a completely separate personality.

And again, I see no reason Revans link was different to theirs. They "shared" his thoughts, just like Revan did. If they'd wanted to manipulate him, they could theoretically attempt to.


They are different. Heck, I even posted one major difference Revan feels Vitiate in his mind. Many of the hosts for the children don't.


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Last edited by ares834 on Nov 20th, 2013 at 04:36 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 04:28 AM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by red8
Revan wins by default.
Nothing past KotOR 2 ever happened.
The Sith Emperor doesn't exist.
Revan and Malak fell because the war took its toll on them.
Revan isn't a deadbeat dad that abandons Bastilla.
The Exile isn't a worthless sidekick.
no


thumb up

Also add that Revan's ultimate plan came to fruition and the galaxy basked in peace for thousands of years.

And Bastila was not a stupid, unassertive hausfrau.

And Meetra Surik was a powerhouse and rebuilt the Jedi Order.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 06:01 PM
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GenomeFrozener
The Last Boss

Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
and that the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate, not the one Revan faced
\

This is something I can see.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2013 10:08 PM
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Nephthys
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Registered: Dec 2007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Not sure I really see the difference. In Star Wars, the force essence seems to go hand in hand with power. And, the essence is his no matter who it is in.

It's like Sauron and the Ring. Sauron doesn't have access to the ring in LotR but it's still his power within it.


Other than in the case of Jedi ghosts. They don't have any power. All they are is pure...

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~essence.~

Anyway, I'm unsure of where this info is coming from. What makes you think that it works that way? I though the amount of power you could use was tied to you midichlorians and shit, not your soul. Would getting rid of a bit of your power diminish you?

And Sauron only became stronger after making the Ring. He poured his ~essence.~ into it, not his power iirc.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
U mad?

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't even know the true purpose of these Children yet. As the codex states, "Since the Emperor would not go to such elaborate lengths simply to create infiltrators in the Republic, the true purpose behind the children remains a mystery." Unless it's just referring to how he can make them his vessels...

Anyway, clearly he needed them for something very important and deemed it worth it. Ultimately, "if he didn't give a shit about the war" then he wouldn't have made them regardless.


No....

I'm pretty sure we do know what use they were for, since their hand was played in the Consular campaign. Their purpose was to be sleeper agents who could turn around and cripple the Republic with timely betrayals. Blaesus reveals himself so that he can destroy the Rift Alliance and the other Children similarly activate for various purposes. The Corellia ones take the Guardian Holds, almost winning the planet by themselves. They do have another purpose though, since the First Son makes it so they can't be detected, the Republic would destroy itself out of paranoia over who could be a Child. As he says, fear, not force, would bring it down. Fairly clever I thought.

He made them cuz they were useful. But they're clearly not that useful that he'd sacrifice loads of his power to make them. Scourge outright says that he doesn't actually care for the war other than in using it to kill as many people as possible. And in this Vitiate doesn't use them for his real plan, preferring to just let the First Son handle things. They aren't even used to spread death. If anything the Children prevent casualties.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
They are different. Heck, I even posted one major difference Revan feels Vitiate in his mind. Many of the hosts for the children don't.


Just the hosts, dweeb. The actual Children indicate that they can feel him.

Also heres another example: the Hands. Another case where they're in constant mental contact with him and he can drain them. So theres 2 cases where its confirmed, so why not make it a hatrick based on all the similarities?


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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 21st, 2013 at 02:41 AM

Old Post Nov 21st, 2013 02:33 AM
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ares834
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Well, souls certainly seemed to be tied to power. Hence, why Sith Spirits can use the force or how Luke and Krayt can use the force when Beyond the Shadows.

Otherwise, agree to disagree.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2013 03:21 AM
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KillaKassara
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The arguments of Neph seem theoretical and biased toward the Hero - playing into the lack of understanding we have about Vitiate or this opaque, unnamed, genderless character. Neph, everything in your respect thread comes from one video game. no expression I mean, Galen Marek had some impressive in-game feats that turned out to be not-so-impressive, mediocre feats in the book.

Ares' arguments, on the other hand, seem unbiased and rational by comparison.

Please, do go on.


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Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 21st, 2013 at 03:30 AM

Old Post Nov 21st, 2013 03:28 AM
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Nephthys
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How are Mareks feats mediocre in the novel? The feats in there are even more absurdly powerful. erm


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2013 01:27 PM
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KillaKassara
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
How are Mareks feats mediocre in the novel?


By comparison, they are!

In the game he literally rips the Destroyer from the sky.

In the novel and in the comic book he just redirects its descent.

In the game he literally beats the Emperor's AND his royal guards.

In the book he only attacks the Emperor alone, and the Emperor doesn't fight back like in the game.

quote:
The feats in there are even more absurdly powerful. erm




eek! laughing

Plus an MMO, unlike an rpg like KoToR or a first person like TFU; the choices and possible outcomes, and all the filler missions, and additive quests in your respect thread, could all be filler and therefore non-canon.


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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Last edited by KillaKassara on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 01:22 AM

Old Post Nov 22nd, 2013 01:19 AM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
By comparison, they are!

In the game he literally rips the Destroyer from the sky.

In the novel and in the comic book he just redirects its descent.

In the game he literally beats the Emperor's AND his royal guards.

In the book he only attacks the Emperor alone, and the Emperor doesn't fight back like in the game.


No, he doesn't. He rips one out of the sky in the trailer, which isn't something that actually occurs in canon. Even in the game he merely redirects it.

No, he doesn't. Even in the game, the Emperor is just faking it (as Galen actually says). Canon states that Marek was 'no match for the Emperor.'

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
eek! laughing


I guess you haven't read the books. erm

In the books, at one point Marek Force Pushes hundreds, possibly THOUSANDS of droids so hard that it creates an 'artificial hurricane' that leaves shadows over the landscape of Raxus Prime.

In the books he casually thinks about destroying a replica of the Jedi Temple with a single Force Push. Fully to scale.

In the books he takes out an AT-AT with a blast of lightning, killing its crew in the process, and then shoves it over with the Force.

In the books he destroys the Sky Hook on Kashyyyk with the Force, quaking apart a structure that reaches into orbit.

In the books he telekinetically manipulates a frigate in freefall from orbit with the force while maintaining a force shield "against the sort of heat he might find in the outer layers of a star" while moving so fast that 'individual droplets of water hit like thermal detonators' against his shield WHILE holding the ship together again with telekinesis, until at the end he DISINTEGRATES THE ENTIRE FRIGATE into a billion pieces.

Galen Marek in the books is just about the most powerful Force user in Star Wars.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
Plus an MMO, unlike an rpg like KoToR or a first person like TFU; the choices and possible outcomes, and all the filler missions, and additive quests in your respect thread, could all be filler and therefore non-canon.


I didn't put any filler missions or optional choices into my respect thread. All entries are from the class storyline. All of the things I've listed are canon in every way as backed up by the Old Republic Encyclopedia.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Nov 22nd, 2013 at 01:52 AM

Old Post Nov 22nd, 2013 01:49 AM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
The arguments of Neph seem theoretical and biased toward the Hero - playing into the lack of understanding we have about Vitiate or this opaque, unnamed, genderless character. Neph, everything in your respect thread comes from one video game. no expression I mean, Galen Marek had some impressive in-game feats that turned out to be not-so-impressive, mediocre feats in the book.

Ares' arguments, on the other hand, seem unbiased and rational by comparison.

Please, do go on.


That one game storyline is longer than Revan's novel, and game combined x2 though.

Not to mention Revan didn't have any outstanding feats in the game or novel.

Old Post Nov 22nd, 2013 01:58 AM
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red8
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
thumb up

Also add that Revan's ultimate plan came to fruition and the galaxy basked in peace for thousands of years.

And Bastila was not a stupid, unassertive hausfrau.

And Meetra Surik was a powerhouse and rebuilt the Jedi Order.


That's how I remember it.

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Old Post Nov 22nd, 2013 02:40 AM
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