That was confirmed in the events of Dr Fate v2 (ill post the necessary scans if needed). We also see that an explosion of Chaos/Order created universes (plural) in Dr Fate v2 #6:
Their multiversal power was also confirmed in DC Heroes: Atlas of DCU guidebook, but it's more than hundred pages so i can't find the particular statement where this is mentioned, i remember reading it though.
Anyway, all lords of chaos + lords of order are multiversal, so they should win, without a doubt against the skyfathers.
Edit: ^ Look, that's nice and all, but it doesn't really mean anything. Nabu was the most powerful Lord of Order, and his best is (imo) below Odin. He's good and all, but he's not really universal, let alone multiversal.
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"And then there was nothing. A once broken something now void.
And on the first day, Doom spoke... 'Be.'
And then there was life."
Last edited by Cogito on Nov 24th, 2013 at 02:57 AM
I'm sorry, you bring up Lords of Order and Chaos and I go to the big ones -- the ones who actually have some feats -- Nabu, Shazam, and Mordru. Their best feats include things like pocket dimension creation and the like, but I don't think that's out of the range of the Skyfathers. On the average end they're below Skyfather, being matched by teams like the JSA and LoSH. Ultimately I don't think those teams would seriously challenge high end Skyfathers.
I'm not going to get into Kismet because she's really ambiguous by definition, and has even more ambiguous feats.
__________________
"And then there was nothing. A once broken something now void.
And on the first day, Doom spoke... 'Be.'
And then there was life."
The conflict between Order and Chaos has always been shown as an eternal conflict that threatens reality -- that much is even stated in the first scan you provided. I'm not as impressed by potential destructive effects that may take forever to come about /shrug
Then your scan here doesn't really say anything. It says Chaos beat Order, and that effect would be felt in the next universal cycle. Nothing about that conflict directly ending the 3rd yuga.
As we saw in DoV, when the Spectre killed all of the Lords of Order and Chaos, there are rules and side effects of their existing that cause consequences. They play a vital role in creation (usually mentioned as destined or fated) and when one side or the other dominates the other it triggers the start of a new age.
__________________
"And then there was nothing. A once broken something now void.
And on the first day, Doom spoke... 'Be.'
And then there was life."
that aside, id like to know how the skyfathers handle Kismet, who as we saw in the Dominus storyline is Dominus' peer and he wants her status as the illuminator of All realities:
Spectre: "I've destroyed all the Lords of Order and Chaos, save you. You're the last surviving guardian of the Ninth Age of Magic."
Nabu: "And the most powerful" (please log in to view the image)
So yes, he killed them. Several of their deaths were shown on panel, the rest were killed off panel. The point of my mentioning DoV was not to say that losing to the Spectre was a low feat (it isn't, of course), but merely supporting their relationship to the universe.
This is supporting my point, that the Lords of Order and Chaos don't so much destroy reality as their balance is crucial to the universe's well-being.
Other than handbooks, I don't know of any instances where Kismet has been referred to as a Lord of Order. When she was first introduced, she was basically DC's version of Eternity -- an abstract not a Lord of Order. Anyways, she's more hype than action.
__________________
"And then there was nothing. A once broken something now void.
And on the first day, Doom spoke... 'Be.'
And then there was life."
Yes with Vandeamon. Ynar being a Lord of Order and Vandeamon being a Lord of Chaos both of whom had grown tired of their eternal conflict and instead chose to serve their own self interests. Classic Fate also warped it back at the end of the tale ( part of the Immortal Dr fate mini).
Considering he had also not killed Mordru who was shown to be leaving the Rock of Eternity after making Shazam waist most of his prepared amassed power in fighting him when he escaped the rock obviously Nabu wasn't the only one not killed. Though I'd agree Nabu isn't Odin level the closest one of the Lords of order and Chaos who is IMO would be Mordru and only his 30th Century self. Even he isn't quite there
Depending on the tale there are some stories that also support the concept that the creation of the universe was due to their conflict and the balance that results. In one Story (unfortunately I can't remember the issue) Phantom Stranger stated that the Presence created them so that their conflict would result in life. In another ( V
Dr fate shortly after Inza Nelson took on the role of Fate we see the Lords of order referencing their role in the creation of life. Considering the number of different creation myths that have been played out within DC ( 4th world Omnibus, Rama Kushna's statements in early Deadman tales and several others) I've long held the view that the the energy discharged by the conflict between the two of them caused the God wave that in turn caused everything else. It's the easiest way of keeping ALL contradictory creation myths as canon
Considering the many low showings of Shazam, Shat-Ru, Nabu himself (though for the most part they were in a mortal shell which naturally restricts them) I can't see how anyone can say they would beat marvel Skyfathers. Not to mention there are a LOT less named Lords of order and Chaos with feats we can apply than there are Skyfathers.
I probably don't know every single Lord of Chaos & Order but from what I've seen of Nabu, Mordru and so on (Who are intended to be the most powerful AFAIK) the Skyfathers win. Odin is just too much. I'm assuming we aren't taking into account Supergod Hercules, King or Rune Thor, Dormammu and the rest.
Yeah, Mordru doesn't quite fit in with the Spectre's comments because we did see him leave the RoE alive, and it's his destiny to survive. Some unknown amount of time did pass between when the RoE scene happened and when Nabu confronted the Spectre though, so who knows what might have happened. Given that we saw multiple Lords killed on panel and we got statements that certain Lords were killed, I don't think there's any reason to disregard the statements by two dudes with a certain amount of cosmic awareness (even if one of them was in a poor mental state)
__________________
"And then there was nothing. A once broken something now void.
And on the first day, Doom spoke... 'Be.'
And then there was life."
which is false, because Mordru survived it, and had appearances afterwards, Amythest survived as well, as shown in infinite Crisis, and there are other Lords of Order/Chaos who are possibly alive as well.
I don't see how that supports your point tbh, because what the scan tells us is: When Lords of Chaos gain the upper hand, chaos dominates the cosmos and ultimately all creation dies. Just so we're clear, all creation = all universes, according to what's been shown in Dr Fate. I have proof if needed.
Kismet, right from her very first appearance, was said to be associated with lords of chaos and order, though it's often stated that she oversees the pahtways to reality for both, but it's evident that she is on the side of order instead of chaos, simply due to the fact that she's good, unlike Dominus.
Also, It's been literally stated that if Kismet dies, then reality dies with her, in action comics #748:
And this applies to all the lords, 1 example from DC comics presents #75, says that a lord of chaos called Chaon, who is necessary for the continuation of existence:
We also have Mordru (at least in the 31st century) has showings that are well above anyone save for Odin, here are universal showings:
absorbs half (the other half went to Glorith) of Infinite Man's power, which gave him control over time and space (though he was later overwhelmed by the whole power) in LoSH v4 #60:
He's also handled the Legion/JLA, pre crisis, and post crisis as well. I have those too, so let me know.
Of course, Odin has that kind of showings, but Zeus and Vishnu (the other 2 most prominent skyfathers) don't, Vishnu doesn't have much appearances to begin with, and there's nothing noteworthy to say about him, Zeus has been consistently shown to be weak, ive posted this on another thread, here it is again:
I can post more low shoiwngs for the skyfathers.
Kismet > Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu.
Mordru > Zeus and Vishnu.
That's setting aside the other lords of chaos and order (like Phantom Stranger for one)
That's also setting aside the showing i provided at the beginning of the thread, where they collectively create universes.
So id really like to know how can the Skyfathers win.
Correct though I believe, that happened in a Flash comic.
There are many creation stories which had nothing to do with the godwave, and others that don't fit together at all, so it's impossible to fit them all together, though they mustn't be ignored either, several of them have even secondary evidence backing them up.
I disagree, the skyfathers have low showings as well, Odin is the only one who consistently operates on a level beyond many of the lords of chaos/order.
Anyways, what we keep getting to is the balance between Lords of Order and Chaos being necessary. What happens when that balance is disrupted has no meaning with regards to their power specifically, just as universal destruction has no meaning with regards to Galactus if he dies.
Kismet is a lot of hype and no feats.
__________________
"And then there was nothing. A once broken something now void.
And on the first day, Doom spoke... 'Be.'
And then there was life."
@operator yes it was from a Flash comic back up. The 85 mini series immortal Dr Fate reprinted the stories from Flash 305 to 310 ( or there a outs) it also had the tale of Fate vs Khalis and Fate vs Kotec and a retelling of his origin.
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Nov 24th, 2013 02:22 AM
