IIRC the energy flowing through Hulk was just twice what he usually had. And the reason for it was the separation from Banner, which was also causing Hulk to "die".
I don't think it should really be considered at all though.
Even two Celestials is pushing it though since Franklin was only just Celestial level, so it's really not the best statement to use even if it was directly Franklin's power mingled with Hulk's, as opposed to just ambient universe energy mixing with Hulk's.
No specific figure is ever given to it. However, the energy influx is enough to slowly kill the Hulk because it isn't natural and it isn't his normal power source or mechanism. Whatever the amount Hulk's strength was increased is irrelevant because a) it isn't his own power and b) Apoc's tech in this scene in question isn't reading Hulk's energy-level at the time but the energies Hulk is connected to - in essence a whole universe worth.
Whichever way you look at it it's completely invalid as a reference to the Hulk's own power or potential. There are way too many unknowns and the only thing we know for sure is that Hulk was channeling an external, unnatural energy source and that this ended as soon as Banner was restored to the 616 universe.
It was more than just being separated from Banner; it was being in a different universe to Banner but still linked somehow. The energy leaking through Hulk was the energy of the Heroes Reborn universe which Hulk was functioning as a sort of gateway to. It was very, very explicitly the energy that was killing Hulk, not the separation from Banner (Banner, after all, suffered no side-effects from this separation which had been performed by a high-end reality warper).
__________________ QUANCHI112:In between the passes Khan will tear out the orca teeth and use them as an offensive weapon. Khan has crushed a skull before so tearing a tooth off a whale should be no issue.
Close fight I would say. WWH after all was holding back. Thanos doesn't hold back. WWH has healing factor and is possibly stronger on average. So it makes since that he could win.
It wasn't the energy source that was killing Hulk, it was the connection lost between him and Banner that was killing him.
What is being stated in this thread is nothing but a made up myth. Hulk eventually went super Saiyan during those days because he couldn't control his powers. He learned during that time the importance of him and Banners connection.
You're still here after that shaming I dealt you? Ha! I love a fool that is gluten for punishment. You will find that, much like Hulk, I only get stronger as the battle continues, while your sad shields buckle Titan Hugger!
"Another tldr post."
Correction- another energetic post that kills your contentions.
"Pak has given him feats to put those to shame. It isn't even close."
My ass. Stan Lee had Hulk ripping a full powered Juggernaut off of his back with one arm and swinging him around like a two dollar sack of potatoes.
WWHulk was a dead match for Juggs.
WAR Hulk (Horseman) straight up trounced Cain and nearly killed him.
Pak is only one of many writers that show Hulk hitting insane levels.
And that was WAAAAAY before Pak had Juggernaut hold WWHulk to a stand-still in combat during the WWHulk: X-Men run.
Learn you facts. And read more than just stuff with Thanos in it.
"No Hulk could ever last more than a minute with HOTM Hulk."
Wrong. Almost ANY Hulk could. With proper motivation.
Let me clue you in on something- World Breaker is NOT as separate incarnation. It is merely a power marker for Hulk at a specific level of rage.
Hell, it's not even a capping point. WB was just one more step on the ladder of "infinite power potential"- a term that Stern and Lee coined. A power-set that they created. Not Pak.
Pak merely showed us what happens when you take Lee and Stern's character concept and murder his wife in front of him.
Do this to Savage Hulk, Post-Onslaught Hulk, hell- even Grey Hulk, and you could see like results.
Power amping based on emotional and physical trauma.
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That is Hulk's legacy.
And as far a Hulk's highest showings- one could argue that overpowering the physical form of Onslaught (something that even Thanos would be hard pressed to accomplish with raw brute muscle alone) is the most impressive "non-energy" based Feat attributed to Hulk.
It's all subjective to the reader. HotM WB Hulk was insanely powerful. But the precedence for this incarnation was created by giants of the industry that Pak grew up reading the stories of.
PLUS- you just finished saying, several times, that Pak's showings are acceptable canon and continuity works.
So quit your damn back peddling already. You're starting to embarrass yourself.
"Try using objectivity when you debate."
Right. Like you have been a beacon of objective analysis thus far.
Try being less of a hypocrite. Then we can talk.
Unless you believe that the threat of flinging purple fesses qualifies as "objective debate" in your book?
"Infinite power potential is a lie."
Wrong. It is a factual power that has been attributed to Hulk for over 5 decades.
You're lack of basic Hulk knowledge is truly stunning.
I can post a dozen scans in a matter of moments that clearly state, on-panel, that Hulk's power amping has no limit.
Stan Lee stated this virtually word for word when Hulk spun Juggernaut around like a five pound sack of spuds back in their first encounter. Read up before you post.
"He has always been limited by his anger. He doesn't possess infinite anger."
Yes. He does.
You demand proof in one hand, and then make baseless claims that are contrary to on-panel evidence with the other. For shame.
Hulk's writers have stated his potential is limitless.
You claim it is not.
The Onus of Proof is thus ON YOU. Not them.
Now listen and learn- Hulk doesn't just "run out of rage." You need plot bombs and outside factors to de-rail him. Sans that, he just keeps boiling, and thus keeps amping.
He is not an RPG Game. There is no point for point rage to power specific formula for his power-set. He doesn't need "one anger point per amp point"- he just needs to stay angry and he keeps climbing.
Increased rage only speeds up the climb. But constant rage is all that has EVER been needed to maintain the amp.
It is a unique part of his character. He amps as he stays angry.
And he is an infinity of rage with no finite element. (Also taken from direct 616 on-panel reference.) Proof provided. Scans to follow.
Bottom line- Hulk's mental physiology is as much of a wonder as his physical state. He is unique. An Avatar or Rage, much as Juggernaut is an Avatar of Destruction. Hulk was not designed with a "stopping point" for his rage.
That is his legacy power. You don't have to like it. Because you did not create him. But you cannot deny what is on-panel.
I'll post a few scans for your lazy butt this once. I'll even use a ton of "non-Pak" reference just to make two points at once.
After that, you can dig up your own scans.
1st: Pre-Retcon Beyonder (arguably the most powerful being to every exist in the MU this side of The One Above All) CLEARLY spelled this out on-panel: Hulk's rage has no finite element. Period. It doesn't get more cut and dry than having a high end reality warper scan you and VERIFY that you have limitless rage built into your design.
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Proof provided. LIMITLESS rage.
2nd: Virtually every writer to touch Hulk has confirmed his Legacy Power. Limitless potential for strength amping. It is what separates him from other bricks. Look and learn. And note the fact this is PRE-PAK. Not that this should matter, given your insistence that you never opposed Pak's showings for Hulk.
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Boundless Rage. Just ask the most powerful FF of an Eldergod.
Granted Thanos's shields would likewise buy him some time... shame he doesn't have them in this fight.
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Boundless stamina. No tiring out.
When is the last time Thanos hit strength levels that let him bust through Cyttorak's enchantment and actually physically harm Juggernaut without the use of magic? (that would be never)
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Overpowering Onslaught, and doing it with one arm while on his back.
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When Loeb-Force Rulk (who straight up murdered Surfer with little effort) faced WWHulk, he quickly learned that "limits" were not a factor for a truly pissed off Hulk.
"You don't even comprehend the basics you awful little man."
The basics of kicking your ass in verbal debate requires little enough understanding to begin with.
You are, what the folks at Marvel.com would have called, "bush league" at best.
I'll hit the rest of this none-sense in my next post.
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"I said his opinion should be dismissed on fictional matchups he didn't pen like all other writers. I don't just do this to Pak."
Wrong.
You "added this clarification" after the fact.
If you want to back peddle now, fine. I'll drop this point.
It is irrelevant to the debate either way.
Your "opinion" of Pak's writing holds about as much water as a dollar store sponge.
"You misunderstand practically every point thrown your way."
Only by you. I suppose it's because you do such a poor job of explaining yourself.
"WW Hulk was overpowered by the Sentry."
No, he actually won that fight. You should read it some time.
"Awesome."
Yes. Yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
"Paks work or comics are facts"
Exactly. Keep this point for later reference. And don't back peddle.
"but his opinion over a Hulk/Black Adam fight has. I relevance since it hasn't seen publication."
1. Pak never discussed Black Adam and Hulk. Try reading before you reply.
2. Pak created WWHulk. He designed his power level. He was given free reign to write his WWHulk Bio. And his fights.
His interview statements about Hulk's power-levels are therefore quite valid.
As Pak could, at his whim, have put any of those thoughts onto panel.
We saw this in dramatic form when Pak clearly had is stated, in a comic (which you just agreed is thus factual), that Sentry stalemated Galactus.
So Sentry, PRE-WWHULK, was stated on-panel as being powerful enough to land a draw against a foe that has kicked the ever living crap out of Thanos with a flicker of effort.
"Bfr is a win here. Try reading the forum rules."
Cry semantics if you like. Yes, a BFR is a technical way to end combat.
But it is FAR from a conclusive victory condition.
And, against a creature that can leap the distance of the planet in a few bounds, it holds little to no weight.
Stick to contentions with actual value.BFR is a throw away.
"If I transport you into a black hole I win."
That requires powers. Thanos has none here. Try again.
"Thor ko'd him with a lightning attack. He also took him off planet."
Again- WITH powers. Which, again, are not allowed in this match.
...didn't you just tell ME to read the rules?
C'mon now.
"Thor fights the Hulks fight and engages him in a manner which benefits the Hulk. Thats a testament to Thor."
Thor fights Hulk the same way he fights just about anyone.
Hammer and fist, with a touch of lightning.
That is 90% of Thor's game. And NOT just against Hulk.
It's simply how the noble Viking godling chooses to roll.
That is not a testament to Thor. It is a mental limitation.
Much as Superman's boy scout demeanor is his mental limitation.
"He has powers which give Hulk no chance tbh."
And that holds no water in a fist fight match... tb even more h.
"Thanos is far superior to Thor so drawing some false parallel here is pathetic."
I drew a comparison between Thor with the Power Gem and Thanos.
Thor w/Power Gem is much like Drax or Champion with Power Gem... they gain Hulk's legacy power- namely limitless strength potential.
And THAT is more than a match for a powerless Thanos.
Pathetic is your sad attempts to twist the contentions to fit your narrow view of reality.
"Thanos doesn't notice Thor when he attacks him."
And again- Thanos had his powers. Including his Force Field, Tech Amps, Cosmic Energy Manipulation, etc.
He does not in this match. You points are pointless.
Add that Thanos DID feel and notice Thor's hits when Thor had the Gem.
Which, once again, you are side stepping.
"Nul sure did."
Nul was a joke, IMO. His best Feat was beating up a bunch of Vampires. There are no matches or Feats to place Nul higher than WWHulk in striking power.
Add that Nul had Thor beat nearly to death. Thor even admitted he could never beat him. That is why he went for a BFR. He sure as hell wasn't going to win a fist fight.
"That was an amped Hulk to boot."
No, that was an augmented Hulk. Amping is a power that Hulk invokes when rage causes his strength score to climb.
Nul showed no evidence of "amping" during his short (and mostly useless) tenure.
"Quit picking and choosing."
Practice what you preach.
"Thanos' fists are more impressive than Hulks."
Not really. They are roughly the same size. And purple is a far more feminine color than green.
"Hulks fists as WW Hulk depowered when he punched the Sentry who continuously flew into them to boot."
Get this right junior:
1). Hulk's fists did not depower due to striking Sentry. They both briefly powered down, as Hulk battered Sentry with just enough restrained force to bring him down to Human Level without killing him.
2). Sentry emits a Higher Than Herald Class degree of Cosmic Power- and one of the facets of that power includes a calming aura that is SPECIFICALLY designed to power down Hulk by reducing his rage. It is a Cosmic Level Empathic ability.
Hulk faced that in combination with Sentry going all-out and using more raw power than he had EVER used prior.
3). In HotM, Hulk stated clearly that he was holding back power even during the final moments of WWHulk #5 (i.e.- he was limiting himself even when faced Sentry. He had WB power reserves just waiting for him to un-cork).
4). Seconds after Sentry and Hulk "de-powered", Hulk exploded with FAR more rage and resulting power than WWHulk had showed prior. He went WB on a dime. That shows the was FAR from depleted. In fact, the power he exploded with as WB in the last pages of WWHulk # 5 were geometrically higher than the levels he showed prior.
5). Pak made it more than clear that WWHulk was not a killer during that run. He SAVED Sentry. He did not go for the kill. He went for the "talk him down with fists" mythos that Hulk showed during the entirety of the Planet Hulk saga. Which is why Robert thanked Bruce for stopping him. Which is also why Bruce's eye were still glowing with green radiation when he powered down to human form for all of two seconds. And which is why he EXPLODED waaaaaaaay beyond his prior levels when he went World Breaker a mere few seconds later.
You have no idea how the mechanics of Sentry or Hulk work.
Quit pretending you do.
Hulk went from green-eyed human to WB in a mili-second. It took only the introduction of further anger agents to call upon his limitless reserves. The moment Rick was stabbed, Hulk was back to FULL WWHulk levels. A moment later, he dusted those levels and hit Bridge Class levels with ease. Pak later put, on panel, that Hulk's CHOICE to hold back such power was just that- a CHOICE.
One that he abandoned when Rick was stabbed. One that he let go completely when he found about the bomb that killed his wife. One that he dropped to hit WB with ease. A Feat that PROVES, right there on panel, that Hulk was FAR from running on empty.
His dual-power down with Sentry was highly context sensitive, it included specific powers that are NOT available to Thanos in this match up, and Pak later put (on-panel) proof down that Hulk was actively limiting himself during the battle.
Read more than just Thanos, and you may actually learn a few things.
"Not impressed, bro."
No worries. You impression is not required.
"Guy didn't even ko Ghost Rider."
Yes. He did.
He mud stomped Ghost Rider. Blaze was out like a light.
Zarathos, the Demon Sans Blaze, was the only form that got back up.
Then Zarathos rode away. Hulk never even fought him.
Did you even read that comic? ...Just look at the scans posted above and below. Seriously now.
And regarding damage output...
You keep dodging that that Thanos is limited to punches in this fight. Punches. That is all.
Thanos' fists would be jack spit against WWHulk's healing factor.
Thanos, at BEST, could only take divots out of Hulk that are fist sized. That is simple physics.
WWHulk healed that kind of damage like a kid chewing bubble gum.
Zom was disintegrating Hulk's spine and internal organs with each hit. Hulk was healed fully within seconds.
Thanos lacks the tools to put Hulk down when you take away the Mad Titan's other powers.
It's akin to putting Thanos into a fist fight with Juggernaut- he simply is NOT designed to win that form of a fight with just his punching power.
He cannot.
It takes more damage than mere fists can dish out.
Hell, even if by some miracle of God; Thanos tore Hulk apart (which he could not with Hulk at this level), big Green would be fully healed in mere panels. Thanos would not. Hulk's healing factor is beyond the Titans. It is why Hulk needs no Force Field to protect him from the likes of Drax or Champion w/Power Gem.
Hulk has the tools needed for that kind of fight built into his very bones.
No Cosmic Powers needed.
It took a (much lower level) Hulk only 20 minutes to fully heal from this:
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What in the blue hell are mere punches going to do against a Hulk that is geometrically more pissed off that that? (Also a rhetorical question- the answer is jack.)
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"Sentry developed new powers after his fight with the Hulk. Yes, the Sentry is more powerful than the Hulk. I agree, 100 percent."
Sentry learned his molecular powers after his fight with Hulk, but he clearly stated that the power already existed in him. His ability to control his own molecular state is WHY he is so damn powerful.
And again- Thanos has none of those powers in this match. Just his purple inadequate meat paws.
"We see Zeus rape the Hulk hand to hand."
1. Thanos is not Zeus.
2. Thanos has none of the divine powers that Zeus used to self amp himself and to turn off Hulk's healing factor (BOTH of which occurred during that battle).
Again- you are reaching for useless straws. Thanos is not a Skyfather Pantheon Leader in his own home kingdom.
Hell, in this match- Thanos is little more than a high powered brick.
Just fists and jaw. Nothing else.
Comparing THAT to Zeus is a frigg'n joke.
"The guy couldn't even put down the Sentry as the Hulk with him running into his punches."
He did put down Sentry. Sentry's face was purple mush after his fight with Hulk.
Hulk could have stepped on his head and killed him if he wanted to.
And that was despite the fact that Sentry had his powers in full effect, at MAX level, and factoring in that Hulk was holding back power.
"Zom/Strange stopped and then was beaten. He held back and stopped fighting."
He paused. He did not stop. Even as Hulk is pounding him, you can see the magic/cosmic mix of energy bursts still attacking Hulk.
Zom dropped his guard and paid for it.
And again- Zom also FULL powers. Insanely high leveled FULL powers.
Thanos has punches. Only punches.
And you have no valid points to stand upon.
"He punched fast enough to stop Hulk mid launch. I mean quit ignoring comics or the way Hulk fights to sell your piss poor argument. "
He punched Waid Hulk. A sad, sorry excuse for 80's Savage Hulk throw back.
That has SQUAT to do with WWHulk.
WWHulk would mud-stomp Waid's nerfed sad excuse for Hulk writing.
Quit using inaccurate incarnations to support your sad, wanna be stance.
And quit ignoring that Thanos had FULL powers when he hit Waid Hulk (and Thanos still did no lasting damage with that hit- even against a weaker Hulk and even with his powers at full boar).
Honestly- you just keep getting worse and worse at this. It's kinda sad...
"WW Hulk bfr'd a fully powered Juggernaut. You said that wasn't a victory. Eat your own words, kiddo."
I never said that Hulk beat Juggs. Not once. The BFR of Juggs was designed to remove an obstacle from Hulk's path. He had no vested interest in spending all day pounding on Cain. So he side stepped him and threw him away.
Note that Juggernaut did NOT bother leaping back into combat.
Hulk had time for nice long talk with Chuck before Cain pulled his butt out of the mud.
That said- Juggernaut would still slap the piss out of a powerless Thanos in a fist fight.
Whereas Hulk has performed better against Juggernaut than virtually any other character this side of a telepath.
Stan the Man made it more than clear how Cain holds up when Hulk starts to freak out and truly amp up.
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"Yes, he hasn't since WW Hulk was an emotional wreck who begged to be put down. Great champion."
And Thanos is an over powered Goth that walks around crying over the fact that Death wont even give him a pity lay.
At least Hulk had righteous motivations to allow himself to be dropped. He was actually saving the world.
Thanos was just busy trying to keep his kid from kicking his own ass (which occurred anyway- go Thane, way to show just how sad the little Emo ***** known as Thanos truly is when the chips are down).
...what was that you said about emotional wrecks? Thanos is a Freudian nightmare. The goof ball has "fail" built into his very mythos. Much as Adam Warlock pointed out to him.
Thanos is FAR from a champion of anything.
He his a selfish, whiney, Superboy Prime wanna be.
And his chin looks funny.
"WW Hulk is not that impressive."
Nor is a de-powered Titan.
In truth, Thanos reduced to "just fists" is really nothing to brag about.
Most of his power comes from Energy Manipulation, Cosmic Self-Boosting, and Tech.
Stripped of that- he is just another high level brick.
Now that said...
I find it amusing that you would say that WWHulk is not that impressive, yet you cry about how much "higher" in power level Pak's Hulk writing is compared to other writes.
Hypocrisy just oozes from you by nature, doesn't it? Make up your own damn mind junior. You are jumping fences faster than OJ right now.
And for the record- dropping a Fully Unleashed Sentry with nothing but brute force is beyond impressive.
Sentry, prior to facing Hulk, was PWNING Heralds like they were children.
And in HotM, Hulk clearly stated that he was holding back EVEN during his fight with unleashed Sentry.
He took down Sentry while holding his own Gamma Rage in check.
That's not just impressive- it's downright EPIC.
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"Prove it. Quit saying he would beat Thanos without the proof. Its awful debating."
1. WWHulk and Thanos have never fought. Therefor there is no "proof", only logical deduction.
2. Champion w/Power Gem had Thanos primed for an ass whooping. Only trickery saved him. That is comic book history.
3. Thor w/Power Gem had Thanos on the ropes and forced him to retreat for Tech Weapons. This too is on-panel comic history.
4. WWHulk has the same basic power-set that a Power Gem user has: Boosted starting strength, and limitless amping.
5. Thus logical deduction shows Thanos is likely to get his ass kicked by WWHulk in a "fist fight."
Especially when you factor in that Thanos is crippled for this fight- he as only his fists to fall back on (and not even the shields, energy, and cosmic power that he used to face off against Champion and Gem-Thor).
"Keep making excuses Hulk couldn't put him down."
Again- Thanos NEVER faced WWhulk.
"Thor beat up Hela who punked Mephistopheles himself. I mean come on Hulky."
With powers... which Thanos does not have in this match.
I mean, come on common sense-y.
"Odin didn't kick his ass."
Yes he did. Thanos was out gunned. Period. He showed bravado in the face of being outmatched, but he was outmatched none the less.
"He respected him and even said so."
Thanos respected Hulk. He also said so during his fight with Champion.
But respect has little effect on the outcome of this power limited fist fight.
"He never put him down but we see Zeus own him with a blast and then engage Hulk fisticuffs. Zeus had the poor Hulky puking up blood."
Zeus used Skyfather Divine Magic to turn off Hulk's healing factor and strength.
Thanos lacks this luxury.
Stop making baseless comparisons. The do you no credit.
"That was a fully fed Galactus who still didn't kill Thanos."
Fully fed? Show the scan to back that.
And no, he didn't kill him. Because Thanos BEGGED for his life.
What he did do is drop him with a single blast, and prep to kill him with a second.
(And by the way- Hulk has tanked blasts from Galactus on more than one occasion.)
"Awesome showing. Thanos later saved Galactus and all of 616 from the Hunger."
Thanos can do much with his full power-set AND a crap load of scheming and planning.
So can Dr. Doom for that matter.
But again- that has jack squat to do with a fist fight scenario.
...you know, it's kind of fun coming on here and slapping you around like this.
I feel a bit guilty for it (it's kind of like kicking a crippled puppy), but it is fun none the less.
Have fun thinking up your off-base rebuttal. If I get bored enough, I may even swing by and read it sometime.
Right now though... I think I'll go track down a real debate.
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Dec 3rd, 2013 11:32 PM
