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Elves were genuinely stronger than Dwarves and Men
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KillaKassara
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Elves were genuinely stronger than Dwarves and Men

A reference which supports the view that Elves were stronger than Men can be found in JRRT's Commentary on the Athrabeth in HoME X (Tolkien is comparing men and Elves here):
"They (Elves) were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods. Their bodies could not, however, survive vital injuries, or violent assaults upon their structure; nor replace missing members (such as a hand hewn off)."

"He was as tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rocks or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship."
- JRR Tolkien, Book of Lost Tales 2

"Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. 'The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow--an Elf.'"

-JRR Tolkien, Fellowship of the Ring

"In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race.
Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the course of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapons or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died."
- Of Men, The Silmarillion

As far as maximal strength, an active Elf is more likely to build it quicker and can potentially achieve a higher lifting max above human plateau. Though Elves didn't tend to work maximal strength, more endurance strength. The Great Orcs like Bolg did achieve that level of maximal strength.

Elves are the Vulcans of LoTR.

I'd reckon ancient Elves like Galadriel possessed downright super human strength. A Maia like Sauron, even before his armored form, or Manwe would be a lot stronger than that.

Tulkas is Hercules.


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Last edited by KillaKassara on Dec 15th, 2013 at 01:40 AM

Old Post Dec 15th, 2013 01:31 AM
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Stealth Moose
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First-Age elves are probably stronger than most humans, but not necessarily all of them. Hurin was short but considered extremely strong even to the elves. His son went on to be tall and strong even among the folk of Doriath.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2013 04:53 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
First-Age elves are probably stronger than most humans, but not necessarily all of them. Hurin was short but considered extremely strong even to the elves. His son went on to be tall and strong even among the folk of Doriath.
Turin was the #Chosen1.

He supported the weight of the Dragon Helm that the Noldor kings, and his father, found too burdensome.

His father was a more skilled fighter, Ecthelion the Fountain, Feanor, and Fingolfin presumably had far superior agility, stamina and durability - but over all I believe with the Dragon helm and the Black Sword Turin would succeed where Fingolfin, the greatest warrior in this thread, failed in killing Morgoth - as was the prophecy (until it was retconned). As that sword killed anything it bit, if Fingolfin had used it, it may have destroyed the weakened supreme Valar Morgoth.

Suffice it to say Turin was physically stronger and faster than most Elves.


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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Last edited by KillaKassara on Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:37 AM

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 12:31 AM
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Stealth Moose
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Beleg was quite strong as well though. I don't recall Turin being explicitly stronger than Beleg Cúthalion but I admit it is possible.


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Old Post Dec 20th, 2013 01:29 PM
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themadsurfer
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I'm a great researcher about races and the ELDAR are generally stronger than men only equaled by Numenoreans and some Hadoreans descendants in their mighty.

Silvan elves are probably even in strength with men of the people of Haleth and third age men.

Sindar of the first age were stronger than most men only equaled by Hadoreans that weren't king's descendants like Turin, Tuor or Hurin.

Nodor were stronger(in average) than any men that weren't Numenorean descendants(for they became thus in appearance with the Eldar mainly the Noldor who were the tallest and strongest elven race). Even the tallest Edain - Tuor was amazed when he saw the elves of Gondolin.

Turin was said to be stronger and taller than any elf in Doriath, but we all know Thingol was taller so that isn't a 100% true statement. It was also said that Beleg was his superior what means that Beleg couldn't be that much weaker and I doubt Beleg was stronger than Fingolfin or Feanor.
Turin was also described as "... and even among the Eldar could be taken at first sight, by someone of the great houses of the Noldor"

Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 07:25 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Beleg was quite strong as well though. I don't recall Turin being explicitly stronger than Beleg Cúthalion but I admit it is possible.

Beleg was also described: "But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there
appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in
white; and he walked up to the fire without a word. And when men sprang up in fear, he laughed,
and threw back his hood, and beneath his wide cloak he bore a great pack; and in the light of the fire
Turin looked again on the face of Beleg Cuthalion"

Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 07:45 PM
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Where is Beleg stated to be a greater warrior than Turin? Beleg is called "the greatest woodsman of those days", but I have yet to see something saying he is a better warrior. By contrast CoH says Turin is "as agile as any Elf, but stronger." That would also include the Elven lords of Gondolin and Nargothrond BTW.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 07:54 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Turin certainly had the natural warrior edge his father had, although I imagine Beleg is the wiser of the two. But your quote still stands.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2014 09:36 PM
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No... the sentence "as agile as any Elf, but stronger." definitely doesn't include the Elven Lords like Fingolfin forget it!!!

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:18 AM
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ares834
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Where did I say it did? It seems to be talking about elves still around at that time hence why I mentioned Gondolin and Nargothrond. On a similar note though, I don't see even Fingolfin being vastly superior to the likes of Hurin or Turin.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:22 AM
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And like I said it was also stated that Turin was the tallest being in Doriath but Thingol is definitely taller.
It was never stated that Turin was better than Beleg also but at one moment it was stated:
"One only was mightier in arms among the march-wardens of Thingol at that time than Túrin, and that was Beleg Strongbow;

And I don't think Beleg would even beat Glorfindel in single combat now imagine Ecthelion, Fingolfin, Turgon or Feanor...

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:38 AM
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Average Eldar are stronger than most Edain and Third age men.

Hurin, Turin, Tuor, Huor are freaking exceptions and never again in Tolkien's work appeared men with that mighty except a few Numenoreans maybe.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:44 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
And like I said it was also stated that Turin was the tallest being in Doriath but Thingol is definitely taller.
It was never stated that Turin was better than Beleg also but at one moment it was stated:
"One only was mightier in arms among the march-wardens of Thingol at that time than Túrin, and that was Beleg Strongbow;

And I don't think Beleg would even beat Glorfindel in single combat now imagine Ecthelion, Fingolfin, Turgon or Feanor...


And that was before Turin peaked. In fact, that was when Turin was merely 17 years old.

I'd say Turin was beyond the likes of even Ecthelion and certainly Glorfindel. After all, in the admittedly early versions of the story, Tuor outdid Ecthelion.


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Last edited by ares834 on Jan 7th, 2014 at 02:57 AM

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:45 AM
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Ecthelion killed The lord of the Balrogs and THAT Tolkien kept true and forget about early versions where the Noldor weren't even 6 feet tall and there were only Noldor in Gondolin.

And than we will never know if Turin really surpassed Beleg. Beleg isn't superior than Glorfindel(Tolkien also kept that he slayed a Balrog) in single combat so that would be a freaking challenge for Turin.
But like I said this is out of topic since Turin is a freaking Edain(one of very few) and doesn't count as an average.
This is Tolkien talking about average:
They (Elves) were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods. Their bodies could not, however, survive vital injuries, or violent assaults upon their structure; nor replace missing members (such as a hand hewn off).

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:57 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Ecthelion killed The lord of the Balrogs and THAT Tolkien kept true and forget about early versions where the Noldor weren't even 6 feet tall and there were only Noldor in Gondolin.


And from the only description we have seen of their battle, Ecthelion overcame Gothmog only through luck. Not by out-dueling him.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
And than we will never know if Turin really surpassed Beleg. Beleg isn't superior than Glorfindel(Tolkien also kept that he slayed a Balrog) in single combat so that would be a freaking challenge for Turin.


While Tolkien never explicitly states that Turin surpassed Beleg, to me at least, that seems to be the case. And actually, near the end of his life Tolkien seemed to drop Glorfindel slaying a Balrog and replaced the "Balrog" with a nondescript "demon".


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:07 AM
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A fire demon just like it was first described by Gandalf in LOTR.

"Luck" all wright... you are staring to get in denial and Fingon was also capable of fight Gothmog in single combat until other Balrogs screw him and that's another character Turin wouldn't defeat.

All right you can stay with your opinion about Turin just don't overrate him a lot to put him in Fingolfin's league.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:19 AM
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ares834
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Nope. He described it as nothing more than demon. The simple fact that he referred to it as a demon rather than a Balrog seems to suggest he intended to change it. Admittedly though, for similar reasons to Galadriel fighting with the Teleri, I don't consider this canon. Just pointing it out that Tolkien seems to have intended to change it.

Fingon is a very capable warrior as well. Still, I wouldn't put him beyond the great heroes of men. After all, consider the fact that Morogth put a bounty on Beren's head at least as large as the one on Fingon's and that was simple because he was a very capable warrior not because he was High-king (this is prior to the Silmaril quest BTW).

I never put Turin in Fingolfin's league.


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Last edited by ares834 on Jan 7th, 2014 at 03:26 AM

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:24 AM
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How many demons exists in Tolkien's work?
Fingon is more or less like his father (maybe even more trained) so he's superior than any heroes of men.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:30 AM
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Who knows?

As for Fingon, where is it stated he was as capable a warrior as his father?


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:36 AM
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So in the end you think that Turin surpassed Beleg so much that he would defeat Glorfindel, Ecthelion or Fingon.

He was surely more greedy for battle.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:40 AM
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