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Smaug vs. Balrog
Started by: quanchi112

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Nephthys
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So how badass was Smaug? What was his fire like?


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:44 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Firefly218
Gandalf is not weak. He is one of the most powerful wizards inn middle earth. Also, losing to sauruman is no embarrassment considering his power, not to mention gandalf has defeated sauruman in various occasions.
There are like five wizards on middle earth and we saw him lose to Saruman. Not really impressive.

Gandalf beat him when he was the White version but this is the Grey were are referring to who beat The Balrog by himself.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:45 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
So how badass was Smaug? What was his fire like?

Hot enough to restart a bunch of cold furnaces which couldn't be started by any "normal fire", and melt/burn even solid stone.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:46 PM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Not sure that's correct, in the book his belly is augmented by the gold, gems and jewels that became impregnated in this scale from decades of sleeping on treasure.

May well have been, I read the Hobbit when the Fellowship of the Ring movie came out.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
But regardless, this is a movies only match. A metal bolt has thus far broken his scales and a well placed metal bolt will eventually kill him.

So we can't use any other sources?

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:48 PM
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Estacado
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So without reading the books...to kill Smaug you have to use a dwarf ballista weapon with a black arrow......why the phuck didnt they build more?
I mean they didnt look too complex....


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:51 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
So the Balrogs fought two Edar and a Maiar to a standstill, whereas the dragons were slayed by three men and an half-elf.

Now granted, the dragon slayers weren't schmucks, but reading the books it definitely felt that the Balrogs had some leverage when compared to dragons.


Well, let's be fair here. In the two instances we see the dragon slayed neither were killed in one-on-one combat. Turin uses surprise to kill Glaurung. As for Smaug, he is laying waste to a city when Bard slays him. We don't actually know how Ancalagon or Scatha were slain.

By contrast, the Balrogs were all slain in one-on-one combat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Estacado
So without reading the books...to kill Smaug you have to use a dwarf ballista weapon with a black arrow......why the phuck didnt they build more?
I mean they didnt look too complex....


Only in the movie version. In the books, Smaug is killed by a "magic" arrow.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:53 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
Hot enough to restart a bunch of cold furnaces which couldn't be started by any "normal fire", and melt/burn even solid stone.


Hmmm, I was think of doing a Smaug vs Elsa thread, but he sounds too powerful.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:53 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
continuing to repeat red herring isn't debating.

The Balrog was fought to a standstill prior till the lightning amped strike. One old wizard fought him hand to hand and defeated him. The same old wizard who flees from orcs and was beaten by Saruman. Facts.

Yes, the force behind them was less than that of Saruman's tk attacks which left minor cuts and bruises since this defeated Gandalf. Gandalf fought him head on. Try to play it up despite the lack of feats and ignoring Gandalf's embarrassing moments.

The movie made it clear how powerful these weapons which pierce the dragon are and how they were vital to defeating him. I'm willing to bet this will take him down.

An animal displays the same intelligence to protecting its territory so my analogy is right on. Smaug displayed real intelligence yet Balrog did not. Yet you have the audacity to say how is Smaug smarter. You're an absolute buffoon.

The dragon flew into buildings and towers without any real pain or significant damage. Yet you think a fall which didn't kill Gandalf can kill Smaug. You're the absolute worst debater. His skin is like armor and we've seen him fly through giant structures easily like its an afterthought.

The gold covered his entire body but did no significant damage. His skin is armor.

Smaug was not damaged by normal weapons.

The movie made it clear but what weapons did the Balrog shrug off. You are making feats up yet again. Gandalf took the thing down hand to hand without any aid.

laughing out loud


At least you stopped using that red herring. Congrats thumb up

Regardless of yor clownish downplaying, lightning charged Glamdring > what is essentially just a well crafted metal bolt.

Keep insisting that Gandalf is "weak", it just makes you look like an ignorant ass.

Now you're just making stuff up to suit your failed argument. A ballista bolt > The Balrog laughing out loud PROVE IT.

Strawman. I did not say "Smaug is smarter". And now you're backpedaling, you insisted the Balrog had zero intelligence before.

So you can't prove that Smaug would survive the dead fall the Balrog did. It's not a Smaug feat, so stop insisting it is.

You claimed the gold didn't harm him at all. It burned him to some degree, hence his complaining. The film > your fantasies.

The black arrow is essentially a "normal weapon". It's a ballista bolt, not some magical bolt charged with energies.

Again, you need to actually watch the LoTR trilogy and stop youtube debating. Gandalf made it clear that normal weapons wouldn't harm it.


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Last edited by Robtard on Dec 18th, 2013 at 06:57 PM

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:53 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Estacado
So without reading the books...to kill Smaug you have to use a dwarf ballista weapon with a black arrow......why the phuck didnt they build more?
I mean they didnt look too complex....
It takes skill to use this weapon and you also have to contend with a very fast and destructive fire breathing dragon at the same time. The town was nothing to Smaug's wrath. Even the elves had wanted no piece of Smaug. Arrows don't easily hurt this dragon or else the elves would have roasted it. Smaug is a big deal.


Cumberpatch you glorious human being you've done it again. Watch the nerds cry as I roast them all.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:55 PM
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Estacado
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Well, let's be fair here. In the two instances we see the dragon slayed neither were killed in one-on-one combat. Turin uses surprise to kill Glaurung. As for Smaug, he is laying waste to a city when Bard slays him. We don't actually know how Ancalagon or Scatha were slain.

By contrast, the Balrogs were all slain in one-on-one combat.



Only in the movie version. In the books, Smaug is killed by a "magic" arrow.

Oh...should have made it like that in the movie as well.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:55 PM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Estacado
So without reading the books...to kill Smaug you have to use a dwarf ballista weapon with a black arrow

In the books, the black arrow was fired from a bow, and it wasn't a magical arrow--not explicitly anyways--and the reason it killed Smaug was due to luck.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:57 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834




Only in the movie version. In the books, Smaug is killed by a "magic" arrow.


The Black Arrow in the books is never stated to be magical, iirc. Unless you have a quote? Not that it matters though, since the movie it's clearly not.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:59 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Again, you need to actually watch the LoTR trilogy and stop youtube debating. Gandalf made it clear that normal weapons wouldn't harm it.


Only if we take Gandalf's statement as literal. And we shouldn't considering a few moments later we see Gandalf hurting the Balrog with his sword.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Estacado
Oh...should have made it like that in the movie as well.


Agreed.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 06:59 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112


Cumberpatch you glorious human being you've done it again. Watch the nerds cry as I roast them all.


At least spell correctly the name of the man-crush you have.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:00 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Only if we take Gandalf's statement as literal. And we shouldn't considering a few moments later we see Gandalf hurting the Balrog with his sword.


Why shouldn't we take it literally? Glamdring is magical, he also had to magically charge it with lightning to kill the Balrog.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:01 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
The Black Arrow in the books is never stated to be magical, iirc. Unless you have a quote? Not that it matters though, since the movie it's clearly not.


Never directly stated to be magic, no. But, considering it never missed and he has always recovered it and it's a ancient family heirloom it seems like a logical conclusion.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:03 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
At least you stopped using that red herring. Congrats thumb up

Regardless of yor clownish downplaying, lightning charged Glamdring > what is essentially just a well crafted metal bolt.

Keep insisting that Gandalf is "weak", it just makes you look like an ignorant ass.

Now you're just making stuff up to suit your failed argument. A ballista bolt > The Balrog laughing out loud

Strawman. I did not say "Smaug is smarter". And now you're backpedaling, you insisted the Balrog had zero intelligence before.

So you can't prove that Smaug would survive the dead fall the Balrog did. It's not a Smaug feat, so stop insisting it is.

You claimed the gold didn't harm him at all. It burned him to some degree, hence his complaining. The film > your fantasies.

The black arrow is essentially a "normal weapon". It's a ballista bolt, not some magical bolt charged with energies.

Again, you need to actually watch the LoTR trilogy and stop youtube debating. Gandalf made it clear that normal weapons wouldn't harm it.
You conceded the point. thumb up

The sword strike doesn't have the force behind it. One attack already hit Smaug with far greater force whereas Gandalf killed Balrog with the strike. smile

He is weak when compared to Saruman and Smaug. There is a reason he throws fiery pine cones when he's literally stuck on a tree.

If someone had a ballista weapon they would defeat the Balrog. He is slow and wouldn't be able to close the distance in time.

I said Smaug is smarter. You said based on what. You're an idiot. A dog defending his territory such intelligence he displayed.

Watch the opening scene for Smaug. Or watch his scenes in which his flight is considerably faster than falling from that scene. Continue to make asinine claims while ignoring Smaug's feats.


There was no visible damage and he was fine after he got it off him. Being immerses in boiling gold left no serious marks. Awesome feat.


You are ignoring the force of the bolt and the manner in which it was displayed In the film.


Normal weapons don't harm Smaug either. Funny how you pick and choose what applies. Balrog didn't seem powerful enough to defeat Gandalf either whereas Saruman was in moments.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:03 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Why shouldn't we take it literally? Glamdring is magical, he also had to magically charge it with lightning to kill the Balrog.


Gandalf is hurting the Balrog during the fall. At no point in that struggle, is he seen charging his sword with lightning.

Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:04 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
At least spell correctly the name of the man-crush you have.
I don't have to as I know it annoys you. You can't stand any character I like. I enjoy making you hate them. Another added bonus. Balrog goes down easily.

Balrog doesn't have a single advantage here.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:06 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Gandalf is hurting the Balrog during the fall. At no point in that struggle, is he seen charging his sword with lightning.


Glamdring is still magical and Gandalf is greater than mortals and elves, why he wasn't burned by fire and survived a massive fall.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2013 07:06 PM
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