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Supergirl. Wonder Woman. And the Usual Suspects. Heralds of the Luciferian Age?
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I thought my general point for this thread, outlined on page 1, and repeated several times since then, was and is about as concise as any thread topic:


Heh. You also repeatedly said you needed time to unveil the full argument on numerous occasions, and that it would "make more sense" in time. Mixed signals, at best. But this is a pedantic trapping, ignoring the problems with your arguments.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm understanding the format of KMC threads to be one where, as a matter of course, discussion with other people is involved, questions are asked, evidence is presented, arguments and counterarguments exchanged.

That doesn't happen in one page, or one day.
You can look at your average versus thread and find threads that have literally DOZENS of pages.


And 3/4 of vs. forum comments are 2-3 words. Not a great example.

Also, yes, evidence (or lack thereof) is presented, and arguments are exchanged. I presented some reasons I think your arguments are crap. You're telling me how debate works on KMC.



...

In any case, if your quoted line is your thesis, I'm dubious. Because A. you say stuff like this in your OP:
"Where IS the creative staff of DC coming up with this stuff?
Is it the direction of it's own leadership, or that of Warner Bros?"

And B. the thread title contains the ludicrous question of whether or not these characters are heralds of the Luciferian Age, whatever the hell that means.

You're NOT just saying there's some Christian references. If you were, you wouldn't be asking such leading questions and making statements that go WAY beyond your "thesis" into the realm of massive movements toward a specific purpose. So either drop the BS and say what you mean, or stop being so melodramatic that we have no chance of understanding you properly.

Btw, everyone knows about Christ references in Superman. His origin story is practically a Sci-fi version of the Gospel stories, and obvious, blatant Christ allusions are everywhere in his work. It's an accepted part of the character, and a writer crutch to convey meaning and allegory. But it's not an underground secret waiting to be unearthed, (or a sign of Satanic influences in the DC ownership, while we're dismissing obvious stretches).


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Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 07:10 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Answer for me precisely, please:

What conclusions do you think I'm implying that are so very absurd?

Please give me specifics from this thread. One or two at the least.


Anything beyond "some Christian references exist in DC stories." Any conclusion beyond that. Absurd.

Because you ask a lot of questions and write in vague ways that imply things but never state them outright. It's a handy thing that allows you to backtrack when necessary. But it's clear you're getting at much more. But anything past that statement above.

So you want a specific one? Sure. Supergirl as a herald of the Luciferian Age. Your evidence is not evidence, your outside sources aren't connected in any meaningful way, the Luciferian Age is a meaningless term as you attempt to use it, and the laughable gap between your examples, and the hundreds of different people involved, makes the argument dead in the water.

Writers write stories, Christian symbols aren't anything new in any media form (especially explicit Christ-like characters like Kal), and people can find patterns anywhere if they look hard enough...even where they don't exist. And readers enjoy "darker" stories than they did decades ago, a trend that has influenced numerous mediums. That's all this is.

Katniss Everdeen gets a Christ pose and some allegorical Biblical elements in her latest movie. As I said, writer crutch. Care to add her to your thesis?


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Last edited by Digi on Dec 31st, 2013 at 07:32 PM

Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 07:25 PM
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Digi
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Ask yourself what the motivation is for a DC exec to make Superman the anti-christ? What motivation, despite decades of interviews and stories that portray him as a good character, and writers specifically trying to tap into the positive potential of the Superman mythos?

Second, execs control direction, but not individual stories. What is the motivation for Joe Writer, doing his 9-to-5 and attempting to make a living for his family writing Superman stories? What's his motivation for making the DC mythos Satanic? Are writers instructed to do this? Where's the evidence of it? What's the monetary benefit of trying to make a secular comic company a herald of satanism? How does this trend stay alive as writers, directors, etc. leave the company? How do they convince each movie director, each writer, to portray this, even as the entire company overhauls itself and its staff over time (turnover rates at comic companies are ridiculous)? What's the endgame? And why has no one ever talked about this who has worked on a DC book?

And if you're going to contradict yourself and say that you don't think Superman is Satanic, why did you post the article saying exactly that in your OP?

Provide plausible answers to those and I will start to take your argument seriously.


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Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 07:41 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Man.

I don't recall any response you've made to anyone else that had such a degree of energy to it, but I thank you for giving it, just the same.

I plan to answer your posts throughout the course of this thread.

Your last one, given a minute or two ago, I might answer in a few minutes.

The first I'll divide up right now (no answers, just all your major points) so it can be responded to either at present or relatively soon, point-by-point. Note that the last point of your original (edited first post is omitted because it is the bulk of your second post all its own:


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
your initial premise involves a speculative article from over a decade ago as your only outside evidence.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
your central thesis (as I understand it) involves so many writers, artists, executives, editorial boards, managing interests, screenwriters, directors, actors, cultural trends, and years, that the collective effort needed to make this kind of thing happen - and keep it a secret from the general public - would shame many world governments in terms of total man-hours.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
you pull from such varied sources that my temporary admiration of your research is overwhelmed by the inexplicable confusion that you would attempt to construct a coherent argument from them.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
nowhere in your analysis do you seem to give more than lip service to the possibility that one of numerous less outlandish explanations may explain everything you're presenting.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

At least religious or political conspiracy theories deal with things that people dedicate their lives to in a deeply spiritual sense. Though most of those fall on their faces in similarly flawed ways, at least the realm in which the theories reside lend them the facade of plausibility.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

Also, it would only be hypocritical if my position here didn't match my opinions in the religious forum. That you use religion as a debating point, and that I post in the religion forum, is a shoddy link to accuse me of hypocrisy, and I'm a little concerned that you think it's a valid rebuttal of my dismissal here.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

... some of your observations - that religious imagery is used occasionally - is uncontroversial (it's been happening for decades in all forms of media) ...

Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 07:46 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Ask yourself what the motivation is for a DC exec to make Superman the anti-christ? What motivation, despite decades of interviews and stories that portray him as a good character, and writers specifically trying to tap into the positive potential of the Superman mythos?



Luciferian heroes aren't (usually) outwardly "bad" characters.

And the script makes for a good storyline.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

Second, execs control direction, but not individual stories. What is the motivation for Joe Writer, doing his 9-to-5 and attempting to make a living for his family writing Superman stories? What's his motivation for making the DC mythos Satanic?


Not Satanic, per se. Luciferian.
The appearance is often quite different.
Luciferian often looks quite Christ-like.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Are writers instructed to do this? Where's the evidence of it? What's the monetary benefit of trying to make a secular comic company a herald of satanism? How does this trend stay alive as writers, directors, etc. leave the company? How do they convince each movie director, each writer, to portray this, even as the entire company overhauls itself and its staff over time (turnover rates at comic companies are ridiculous)? What's the endgame? And why has no one ever talked about this who has worked on a DC book?

And if you're going to contradict yourself and say that you don't think Superman is Satanic, why did you post the article saying exactly that in your OP?

Provide plausible answers to those and I will start to take your argument seriously.


You're giving a hard form to answer.
I can do it, but it's hard to show things that are visually based without actually showing the visuals. Which I'm gradually doing. But it takes time.

Maybe for you it doesn't, but you're a lot more practiced at this.

Again, we're talking a language largely based on symbols. Symbols tend to propagate themselves. So do characters.

Put them in the appropriate situation and a story writes itself.

Have someone scream for "Help" as a mugger with a gun runs from a woman with her purse and what happens if Superman is on the scene? Ultraman? Batman? Hulk? Venom?

The action is all but predetermined.

Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 08:09 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
your initial premise involves a speculative article from over a decade ago as your only outside evidence.


That article deals primarily with Superman. My focus is larger.
I actually came to this topic because of what I noticed going on with OTHER characters. Superman's just a starting point, one that's already been written on.
I figured that article, backed up already with some research, would save me some typing time.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
your central thesis (as I understand it) involves so many writers, artists, executives, editorial boards, managing interests, screenwriters, directors, actors, cultural trends, and years, that the collective effort needed to make this kind of thing happen - and keep it a secret from the general public - would shame many world governments in terms of total man-hours.


Make WHAT kind of thing happen exactly?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
you pull from such varied sources that my temporary admiration of your research is overwhelmed by the inexplicable confusion that you would attempt to construct a coherent argument from them.


Ultimately, if you're saying this is too big a topic to tackle for one thread, you might be right. I don't think you are, but you might be. Unlike you, however, I was NEVER thinking this would be short or involve little discussion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
nowhere in your analysis do you seem to give more than lip service to the possibility that one of numerous less outlandish explanations may explain everything you're presenting.


There's no real way to respond to "seem to", is there?
Your perceptions are your own. But I invited people on page one to offer what you term "less outlandish explanations". I really don't see why I should concern myself with trying to make the counterarguments I'm expecting from people, when, if they are there, and respond to this thread, they will do so on their own.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

At least religious or political conspiracy theories deal with things that people dedicate their lives to in a deeply spiritual sense. Though most of those fall on their faces in similarly flawed ways, at least the realm in which the theories reside lend them the facade of plausibility.


I'm not sure where this is relevant to much.
Then, too, on one level, I find it nearly astonishing we're talking about "plausibility" concerning the subject matter COMIC BOOK writers concern themselves with.

Serious question: If you wanted to deconstruct symbolism in visual medium when people don't know even the basics, how would YOU go about it?


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

Also, it would only be hypocritical if my position here didn't match my opinions in the religious forum. That you use religion as a debating point, and that I post in the religion forum, is a shoddy link to accuse me of hypocrisy, and I'm a little concerned that you think it's a valid rebuttal of my dismissal here.


You normally immediately dismiss people when talking about what you think are religious topics with a "shaking my head" icon?


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi

some of your observations - that religious imagery is used occasionally - is uncontroversial (it's been happening for decades in all forms of media).


You follow this by saying

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Digi
Anything beyond "some Christian references exist in DC stories." Any conclusion beyond that. Absurd.


Does that mean saying references from Greek religions are absurd? Roman ones? Pagan ones? What about those that closely resemble Christianity but are different in several important aspects?

I seriously doubt you've actually considered what you're saying here.

Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 08:31 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery




I covered Snake Imagery on the first or second page.
I haven't presented much (Anti)Christ Imagery.



Brian Azarrello's "For Tomorrow" series might be a good place to start:

Attachment: for tomorrow. father daniel leone. believe in me antichrist opening scene. superman210v2.jpg
This has been downloaded 57 time(s).

Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 09:06 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This thread is naturally beginning to form some thematic groupings.

3 so far:


1. Snake Imagery
2. (Anti)Christ Imagery
3. Masonic Imagery





(Anti)Christ Imagery


Donna Troy in "The Beast has come" scan of Countdown #13.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/opzs6g.jpg

Father Leone. Antichrist Scene. Beginning of Superman #210v2.
"For Tomorrow". Brian Azarrello
http://oi40.tinypic.com/290ztzp.jpg

Man of Steel. Watery Crucifix Pose. After saving oil rig workers.
http://oi44.tinypic.com/1z68fw9.jpg

Man of Steel. Costumed Crucifix Pose in space.
http://oi42.tinypic.com/judf9h.jpg

Superman Returns. Crucifix Pose. After Kisland release.
http://oi41.tinypic.com/dnejr8.jpg

Old Post Dec 31st, 2013 11:00 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider


What Superman did while being possessed or mind controlled has no bearing on his character, like when he was brainwashed into doing [an adult film] with Big Barda (did you miss that one ... ? big grin )



None of what I outlined in my first posts, or, indeed at any point to the present in this thread, dealt with Superman when he was possessed, mind controlled, or brainwashed. All was featured either in the movies, or in the mainstream comics of the times.


First time around, I DID miss that episode with Barda.

In fact, that is one thing that has me hopeful that I can achieve my goal now. For when I originally encountered someone telling me of this, that DC actually published a comic like that years ago, I thought the person was crazy, severely misremembering, or making stuff up.

Then, that person used my own format, unusual for the forum we were in at the time, and showed me scans of the comic he was talking about.

Actually, it wasn't to me directly, but to another group of posters he was arguing with at the time. Again, visuals weren't the norm on that forum, in fact, I was the only one noted for them, but that particular poster, using my method ...

Well, I was awestruck to say the least, though I'm not sure I ever told him so.
I remember that experience even now, though it is many years later.


But my job is a little harder than that. What I'm dealing with to large degree is interpretation. It's like trying to explain the other side of a dual optical illusion.
If the other person doesn't see it, how can you make it so that he can?
How do you explain it to him if he's predetermined to see only one side?



In the meantime, though, so other people will know what we are talking about with that whole Big Barda thing:

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/off-my-mind-what-happened-to-superman-big-bardas-s/1100-144019/

Old Post Jan 1st, 2014 01:05 AM
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Man.

I don't recall any response you've made to anyone else that had such a degree of energy to it, but I thank you for giving it, just the same.


Heh. I don't get out of my casual debating pajamas too often these days. I'll play nice though. I think you're entirely misguided here, but you're being civil. Kudos.

I would like to point out, though, that you listed my questions but addressed, well, none of them so far. They all represent large gaps in your logic. I don't mind addressing a topic I think is outlandish, if it is sincerely held, but I lose patience if concerns and questions are ignored.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not Satanic, per se. Luciferian.
The appearance is often quite different.
Luciferian often looks quite Christ-like.


So do good superheroes. Especially ones with obvious references to Christ built int their origin. And that's the problem. You're forcing a highly unlikely argument - bordering on impossible imo - when a far easier explanation is sitting right in front of you. You're jamming a square peg into the round hole that the square is starting to look round to you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That article deals primarily with Superman. My focus is larger.
I actually came to this topic because of what I noticed going on with OTHER characters. Superman's just a starting point, one that's already been written on.
I figured that article, backed up already with some research, would save me some typing time.


But it DOES say Superman is the anti-christ. Maybe you have other points, but you haven't retracted that article. On one side, there's decades of writers trying to write an essentially good character who represents heroism. Mountains of evidence. That's what you're up against to start making sense with your theory.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Make WHAT kind of thing happen exactly?


Make Superman the anti-christ. Or the DC mythos "Luciferian"

Because you're pulling from different characters, different titles, different writers, different creative teams, different editorial boards, even different mediums. Are you saying they're all in on this?! Or that they're somehow being guided by a person or influence to create a Luciferian mythos? Either is laughably ludicrous.

Or something else? Because any variations of those suppositions is ridiculous.

And again, the round peg is sitting right beside you. Dark stories are the norm these days, and there's only so many story permutations in comics, and it's ALL loosely based originally on myths of some sort (Christian or otherwise). But your Luciferian square peg is the only thing you're considering.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ultimately, if you're saying this is too big a topic to tackle for one thread, you might be right. I don't think you are, but you might be. Unlike you, however, I was NEVER thinking this would be short or involve little discussion.


You have an odd sense of verbose importance with this. (almost) Nothing can't be stated in an easily digestible format. That you've been meandering for pages is a lack of cohesion, not the enormity of the theory. I'm not asking for every reference at once. I'm asking for a reasonably comprehensive abstract that states your case, accounts for criticisms, and can be used as a jumping off point for discussion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's no real way to respond to "seem to", is there?
Your perceptions are your own. But I invited people on page one to offer what you term "less outlandish explanations". I really don't see why I should concern myself with trying to make the counterarguments I'm expecting from people, when, if they are there, and respond to this thread, they will do so on their own.


Not make the counterarguments yourself, but address them. Anticipate them. Also, you should WANT to account for other possible explanations, even make some yourself. It builds a fuller argument, and doesn't give the sense that you're closed off from entertaining other possibilities.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Serious question: If you wanted to deconstruct symbolism in visual medium when people don't know even the basics, how would YOU go about it?


Explaining symbols isn't hard. You're not talking over anyone's head here. They just aren't reaching the same conclusions. But if there is some "basics" you think we fail to grasp, it's your job to explain it, not ours to discern it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You normally immediately dismiss people when talking about what you think are religious topics with a "shaking my head" icon?


I'm normally uncompromising when I perceive the misapplication of critical thought, dogged conspiratorial thinking that has many more plausible explanations, and theories strung together by hopelessly tenuous links.

And yes, sometimes that manifests as a . I think you'll agree I've sufficiently extrapolated on my emoticon, however. wink

As ever, it's the ideas I'm against. Not you. My uncompromising stance, and using words like "absurd" can have a detrimental affect on debate. But I'd be disingenuous if I said otherwise. But you're a longtime poster with no warning record. I disagree with, well, most of this. But I hope my tone isn't misconstrued as personal antagonism.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Does that mean saying references from Greek religions are absurd? Roman ones? Pagan ones? What about those that closely resemble Christianity but are different in several important aspects?

I seriously doubt you've actually considered what you're saying here.


No. When I said "anything beyond that statement" I was talking about Luciferian stuff. I was talking about the claims you seem to be making, or at least implying. Obviously I wasn't saying it's absurd to think there are pagan symbols in comics (and characters, frankly...I mean, Thor's a thing). Those are observations, not interpretations (although sometimes, even the observations may be tainted by your looking for specifically religious symbols...whether or not they always exist where you think they do).


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2014 01:30 AM
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bluewaterrider
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Happy New Year.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 01:57 AM
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So.


I thought a bit about your comments, Digi.

And I did a bit more research.

And, realizing some of the premises you're probably preceding from, I decided to go on and begin my Tuesday update early for this week.


The problem, I am still fairly certain, one of the MAIN problems, at least, is that you have a very different definition of "Luciferian" than I.
I considered that you are an atheist, likely have experience with the term only from forums like this and secular sources, but practically none from the book that actually originated the term.

And how does the secular world define "Luciferian" ... ?



Like so:
---------------------------------
(from Merriam Webster dotcom)

Luciferian


of, relating to, or worthy of an evil spirit <the movie's villain wore a Luciferian expression of supreme confidence>
Synonyms cacodemonic, demoniac (also demoniacal), demonian, demonic (also demonical), devilish, diabolical (or diabolic), Luciferian, satanic
Related Words hellish, infernal; baleful, evil, sinister; malevolent, malicious, malignant; heinous, monstrous; black, immoral, iniquitous, nefarious, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked; barbarous, cruel, ferocious, inhuman, savage
Near Antonyms celestial, heavenly; beneficent, benevolent, benign, benignant; godly, holy, sainted, saintly; ethical, good, moral, righteous, virtuous
Antonyms angelic (or angelical)


-----------------------------------
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/luciferian

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:06 AM
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It's easy to see how you can conclude, wrongly considering the above to be the way I'M using "Luciferian", or indeed even the way Luciferian probably SHOULD be defined, my premise to be absurd.

"Evil ... sinister ... diabolical ... (etcetera) ... ? Supergirl and Superman and Wonder Woman and other heroes are nothing like that, right?

As I've been stating from page 1, however, that's NOT what Luciferian looks like.

Today (Tuesday) I plan to spend some time outlining and illustrating what Luciferian actually DOES look like, and how closely the comics adhere to Luciferian AS THE TERM IS USED IN ITS BOOK OF ORIGIN.


Here will be my basic outline for the day.
I think you will find some of your questions being answered as I go through this program. I see your name listed as a moderator for this forum.
Perhaps, at the appropriate time, you can even help me edit this thread for greater clarity and organization.

In the meantime:





1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12

2. Characteristics of Lucifer, according TO the source of the word "Lucifer".

3. Luciferianism versus Satanism

4. Lucifer as Angel of Light and Prince of the power of the air. Light, sun, and lightning.

5. Prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy metal, etc.

6. Representation of lightning that even the secular world knows --
the Nazi SS or Schutzstaffel (Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel).

7. Lightning symbolism and empowerment in popular culture.
He-Man and She-ra. Captain Marvel. Mary Marvel. Freddy Marvel.
Shazam. Black Adam. Black Mary Marvel. Captain Nazi.
(JLA Axis deserves a special mention.)
And recall now that the original was Captain Marvel, brainwashed.
Silver Age source of power for The Flash.
Design for the so-called "Crest of El" shield of Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:21 AM
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To confirm the obvious, "Lucifer" is a Biblical word.
It would probably be equally accurate to call it a Tanakhan or Toran word.
Since the Bible is the one of those 3 books I know best, however, and the one most easily search-able and use-able online for casual readers, I'm going to use it, and not the others, for reference.

Earlier I actually gave the first Book, Chapter, Verse, and Quote.
However, that does not give a complete picture, not one adequate enough to communicate in a thread of this sort. A bit more fleshing out with other passages is necessary. I'll make this a two-post ref to start, then expand with specific comic book and third party illustrations of my main thread point.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12

2. Characteristics of Lucifer, according TO the source of the word.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014&version=AKJV


Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the origin of the word, Digi.
It's where the name "Lucifer" comes to us from.
A lot of people do not know, but, that is also the ONLY time it is mentioned in the Bible. At least the Authorized King James version of the Bible (AKJV) that I'm using as my reference.
Notice that he is referred to as "son of the morning".
Notice also that he says "I will be like the most High."

Is that "demonic", according to your view of the word?
Like God (the most High) himself?


The Bible describes Satan (Lucifer) similarly in other passages:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28-30

Ezekiel 28

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God;

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise
they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,
thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground,
I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities,
by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,
it shall devour thee,
and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

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Satan is an angel of surpassing power, beauty, and light AS WELL as darkness according to the Bible. Note how many otherwise praiseworthy superlatives were used above.

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011&version=KJV


2 Corinthians 11

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


(Satan himself is ... an angel of light)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024&version=AKJV


Matthew 24:24


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: 17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


(if it were possible, (false Christs and false prophets) shall deceive the very elect)

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Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 02:46 AM
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This page will probably be the final text-heavy section of the thread.

If you actually read through some of this, you should begin to see the relevance of some of the images previously posted.



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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205&version=AKJV

1 John 5

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness*. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

(One translation has: "all creation lies in the power of the wicked one")

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204&version=AKJV

Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 and saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

(confirmation. Satan, according to this Bible passage at least, is current ruler of the world)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010&version=AKJV

Luke 10

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

(Satan as lightning fall from heaven)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20corinthians%204&version=AKJV

2 Corinthians 4


3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

(Satan, according to the New Testament of the Bible, is, or at least was at the time of Jesus, the god of this world)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%209&version=AKJV

Revelation 9

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

(Apollo)

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:07 AM
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Note that the terms and motifs of beast, dragon, serpent, antichrist, light, and lightning have all referred in these passages nearly exclusively to Satan.
Note that the "evil" or "monstrous" or "demonic" incarnations of Satan happen nearly exclusively at the very end of the Bible program outlined by me a page or so ago. Initially, in fact for a very long term, he presents as everything that is light, and awe-inspiring, and beautiful instead. Satan as Lucifer, the Light Bearer/Light Bringer. Not Satan as he comes to mind for the average American.





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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013

Revelation 13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

(the dragon gave (The Beast) his power)

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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A44-45&version=AKJV

John 8:44-45

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=AKJV


Revelation 12

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(serpent, satan, dragon, Lucifer, all names of the devil, who deceiveth the whole world)

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:14 AM
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Here again is the program I plan to cover today.
Note that I've now gone through the lined out portions, for the most part ...


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1. Lucifer. Origin of the word. Isaiah 14:12

2. Characteristics of Lucifer, according TO the source of the word.

3. Luciferianism versus Satanism

4. Lucifer as Angel of Light and Prince of the power of the air. Light, sun, and lightning.

5. Prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy metal, etc.

6. Representation of lightning that even the secular world knows --
the Nazi SS or Schutzstaffel (Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel).

7. Lightning symbolism and empowerment in popular culture.
He-Man and She-ra. Captain Marvel. Mary Marvel. Freddy Marvel.
Shazam. Black Adam. Black Mary Marvel. Captain Nazi.
(JLA Axis deserves a special mention.)
And recall now that the original was Captain Marvel, brainwashed.
Silver Age source of power for The Flash.
Design for the so-called "Crest of El" shield of Supergirl as drawn by Cinar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So.

#5.

The prevalence of lightning symbolism in the occult, Rock, Heavy Metal, etcera.

I'm wary of posting this.
Overall, it's not particularly pleasant stuff.
A simple Google "Image" search of the terms "satan lightning" and/or "ss lightning" will suffice to show anything I could display here.
I don't know KMC policy on posting that sort of thing, even as part of a fairly academic discussion.

It will call up some images that trigger some VERY strong feelings and reactions from some people. I debated including an outside Image Host Provider (IHP) to create a link NOT immediately viewable and a warning that people might be offended by what they see.
For the time being, instead, though, I will leave those 2 simple phrases for people to Google on their own.

I'll link instead to the following ...

Digi, if you want to argue absurdity, that's one thing.
My point is that, whether there is anything to the occult, or, indeed, anything to religion at all, matters little. People believe there is something to it.

And they adopt symbols.
And those symbols may be adapted and transmitted by others.

And it doesn't matter whether or not those people understand what those symbols mean or meant, and it doesn't much matter if they know where the symbols derive from. It doesn't change their origin. It doesn't much change the fact of them.


Look up the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:45 AM
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Continuing ...

(Digi, this is another 3rd party source to follow that initial thread opening article.
This supports the premise that lightning has occult symbolism recognized by various groups, whether recognized by the general population of not.)


6. Representation of lightning that even the secular world knows --
the Nazi SS or Schutzstaffel (Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel).


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The runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel (known in German as the SS-Runen) were used from the 1920s to 1945 on Schutzstaffel flags, uniforms and other items as symbols of various aspects of Nazi ideology and Germanic mysticism. They also represented virtues seen as desirable in SS members, and were based on völkisch mystic Guido von List's Armanen runes, which he loosely based on the historical runic alphabets.


Contents

1 Runes used by the SS
2 Other esoteric symbols used by the SS
3 See also
4 References



Comments
The double-sig rune insignia of the SS Sig "Victory" or "Schutzstaffel" The sig rune (or Siegrune) symbolised victory (sieg). In its original form as the ᛋ-rune of the Younger Futhark, it represented the sun; however, von List reinterpreted it as a victory sign when he compiled his list of "Armanen runes" .[1]

It was adapted into the emblem of the SS in 1933 by Walter Heck, an SS Sturmhauptführer who worked as a graphic designer for Ferdinand Hoffstatter, a producer of emblems and insignia in Bonn.[1] Heck's simple but striking device consisted of two sig runes drawn side by side like lightning bolts, and was soon adopted by all branches of the SS – though Heck himself received only a token payment of 2.5 Reichsmarks for his work.[2] The device had a double meaning; as well as standing for the initials of the SS, it could be read as a rallying cry of "Victory, Victory!".[1] The symbol became so ubiquitous that it was frequently typeset using runes rather than letters; during the Nazi period, an extra key was added to German typewriters to enable them to type the double-sig logo with a single keystroke.[3]

Internationally-renowned American rock band, Kiss, uses a different logo in Germany than it does for the rest of the world, due to the two 'S's in their logo (which spells out 'KISS') resembling the double-sig rune.[4]

In February 2012, it was reported that United States Marine Corps scout snipers had been using the double-sig rune to symbolize their function since at least the 1980s.[5][6] The disclosure led to strong public criticism due to the link with the SS. The Commandant of the Marine Corps gave orders to stop the practice, issued an apology and ordered an investigation into the prevalence of the practice.[6]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sig_%28rune%29

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 03:58 AM
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Digi,

If you looked up those terms "Satan, lightning" and "SS Lightning",
you should have noticed that the Nazi "SS" appeared as a "Satan, lightning" hit.

If you read the "Runic Insignia of the SS" excerpt I just posted from Wikipedia, you learned that the Nazis adopted occult, i.e. what many would consider Satanic, imagery.

I didn't directly post images of those for reasons that should be apparent to you as moderator.

However, as this is a comic forum, I don't have quite the same compunction against posting comic scans, especially from DC's own Wikia.

Recall again:

" ... I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven ..."
and
[i] "I ... saw a beast ... the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority ..."



You can get a fairly clear sense of how many of the aforementioned things come together, probably in an instant, if you examine the scan I'm including here.

Notice that this is only one scan.
There are many more to follow.

Notice that this is a special case, not the general one.
I am well aware of that.
But symbolism doesn't rely on exact tellings to communicate to people.
The general case ECHOES this special case.
And, as I'll show as this thread progresses, the general case is becoming more and more like this "special" case every day.

Attachment: jla axis. lightning imagery abounds.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 04:20 AM
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.

Attachment: black_adam_0004.jpg
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

Old Post Jan 7th, 2014 05:09 AM
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