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Sauron vs Gothmog
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Doesn't work that way Ares.. I asked for feats of Sauron kills you keep going on and on about and you turn around and ask me for feats. Sorry bud.. I'm still waiting on the feats of the people you listed.. I understand they don't have hardly any, and certainly none that can compete with the people I listed.. but that doesn't mean you can simply avoid the question.


That's because there is no answer. Guys like Gil-Galad and Elendil's only real feat is fighting Sauron. But at the same time, Fingon's only real feat is battling Gothmog... My point is, none of these characters really have any feats to speak of.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm curious... YOu don't think Elves and men were more powerful in the ages prior? It seems rather clear to me that both were more powerful and had more feats in the earlier ages.


Uh, where did I say otherwise. Gil-Galad, however, is a First Age elf and of the line of Kings. Logically, he would be a very great warrior.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So... you agree that Feanor is clearly superior to anybody Sauron has beaten.. So Gothmog has the best kill of either of the two.


laughing out loud

He also had his whole gang of Balrogs backing him up. Sauron has the most impressive solitary kill.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If he was more powerful and formidable than gothmog he would be leading the charge.. only he wasn't. Gothmog was.

Not necessarily true. Initially, Morgoth was superior to both yet he does not lead the charge.

[QUOTE=14570395]Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So we have better feats for Gothmog... better standing in battle than Sauron.. and we have one dying by a lesser foe.. Do you honestly believe Isildur is on the same level as Etch is? They aren't even close. Gothmog killed him as well.. Sauron didn't kill Isildur.. another big difference.


Are you dense or do you just bother to not read my posts? I said in my post, Isildur did not kill Sauron he "merely cut the ring of his corpse."

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Gothmog is a warrior.. Sauron isn't. It's really that simple.


By the same inane logic, Gothmog is superior to Melkor... Simply because Sauron stays in the back does not make him inferior in battle.

Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 08:35 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
That's because there is no answer. Guys like Gil-Galad and Elendil's only real feat is fighting Sauron. But at the same time, Fingon's only real feat is battling Gothmog... My point is, none of these characters really have any feats to speak of.



Uh, where did I say otherwise. Gil-Galad, however, is a First Age elf and of the line of Kings. Logically, he would be a very great warrior.



laughing out loud

He also had his whole gang of Balrogs backing him up. Sauron has the most impressive solitary kill.



Are you dense or do you just bother to not read my posts? I said in my post, Isildur did not kill Sauron he "merely cut the ring of his corpse."



By the same inane logic, Gothmog is superior to Melkor... Simply because Sauron stays in the back does not make him inferior in battle.


Who was wiping out the armies of the hordes in the beginning of LOTR? Sauron or Melkor?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 08:40 PM
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There needs to be a line drawn here between movie Sauron and book canon Sauron, Supra. Since we're talking about Silmarillion feats and characters here, using movie feats is inadmissable.

Also, Gothmog was not a man but a Maiar of the same order as Sauron. Sauron was simply a much better Maiar which is why the Balrogs became mortal and feral and Sauron retained much of his immortality and higher powers. It's like comparing Zeus to a Cyclops.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 09:42 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There needs to be a line drawn here between movie Sauron and book canon Sauron, Supra. Since we're talking about Silmarillion feats and characters here, using movie feats is inadmissable.

Also, Gothmog was not a man but a Maiar of the same order as Sauron. Sauron was simply a much better Maiar which is why the Balrogs became mortal and feral and Sauron retained much of his immortality and higher powers. It's like comparing Zeus to a Cyclops.


Ok fair enough, but was his power not that great with the ring to be wiping out hordes or people as the book describes.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 09:54 PM
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It's thought with his ring he could destroy the forces of Middle-Earth as of the trilogy. This includes the combined forces of Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Gondor, Rohan, Dale etc. There aren't any First Age elf armies and Numenoreans to keep him in check.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 10:06 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's thought with his ring he could destroy the forces of Middle-Earth as of the trilogy. This includes the combined forces of Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Gondor, Rohan, Dale etc. There aren't any First Age elf armies and Numenoreans to keep him in check.


What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 10:10 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There needs to be a line drawn here between movie Sauron and book canon Sauron, Supra. Since we're talking about Silmarillion feats and characters here, using movie feats is inadmissable.

Also, Gothmog was not a man but a Maiar of the same order as Sauron. Sauron was simply a much better Maiar which is why the Balrogs became mortal and feral and Sauron retained much of his immortality and higher powers. It's like comparing Zeus to a Cyclops.


Which doesn't change the fact that Gothmog has the superior feats and wins under his belt. Doesn't change the fact that Gothmog was more formidable and lead the forces in battle while sauron was behind lock and key. Nobody is denying Sauron is the better sorcerer and more versed in deception.. cunning and the ways of Melkor. What is also crystal clear is that he isn't the warrior that Gothmog is.. if he was.. he'd be in charge of the forces and leading the charge as the greats did back then.. he wasn't and for good reason. When Gothmog was around Sauron took a back seat to him when it comes to the battles, and since this is a fight.. not a war of words or magic.. Gothmog wins.

Also... how did Gothmog and other Balrogs become "mortal" and Sauron didn't... explain to me how this happened and where this is stated?

Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 10:46 PM
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@Kurp, you are a smart man, please answer..What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 10:52 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
That's because there is no answer. Guys like Gil-Galad and Elendil's only real feat is fighting Sauron. But at the same time, Fingon's only real feat is battling Gothmog... My point is, none of these characters really have any feats to speak of.



Uh, where did I say otherwise. Gil-Galad, however, is a First Age elf and of the line of Kings. Logically, he would be a very great warrior.



laughing out loud

He also had his whole gang of Balrogs backing him up. Sauron has the most impressive solitary kill.



Are you dense or do you just bother to not read my posts? I said in my post, Isildur did not kill Sauron he "merely cut the ring of his corpse."



By the same inane logic, Gothmog is superior to Melkor... Simply because Sauron stays in the back does not make him inferior in battle.


Actually this isn't true at all...

Fingon fought Glaurung when he first appeared... which alone is more than the featless wonders you keep talking about

Ecth.. also killed balrogs before he even met Gothmog.. again something greater than than people you mentioned. Shit, just defeating Gothmog alone is vastly superior to anything. So no, by feats Feanor... Ecth and Fingon are VASTLY superior to Sauron best victims.. of this there is no doubt.

I don't know how I could forget but I forgot the massive feat of getting Ungoliant to let loose of Melkor when she was in the process of devouring him. It was balrogs who were called and saved the day... Not Sauron.. That is a massive feat for the powers of balrogs to drive away Ungoliant.. who rivaled Melkor in power after devouring so much of the light. Shit he had Melkor helpless to do anything till the balrog saved the day.

Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 11:21 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Supra
What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?


Nobody knows but that's irrelevant because for much of his life he was a shapechanger or a disembodied spirit. Morgoth was a giant in his final form, but he was not always so. Tolkien didn't make character sheets for his creations.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 11:31 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Supra
@Kurp, you are a smart man, please answer..What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?


This proves my point and you all are in concession till you answer this..

His makeup proves he cannot be hurt by this unruley orc.

Concession Accepted

Sauron Wins due to unmatched durability and strength and size.

Sauron is a part of the prime evil as a minion of fallen angel is part of diablo..

Melkor created Orcs

Sauron has power similar to Melkor

Sauron has the Ring

Melkor>Sauron>(Orc) Gothmog


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 11:32 PM
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KT, you clearly have not read the books. Your repeated assertions in the face of direct quotes and refutations is mind-boggling. Balrogs were slain, and the one in Moria is the last of his kind. In the sacking of Gondolin, many balrogs died.

Sauron, however, was not the same until he crafted the One Ring. And even then he survived the flood of Numenor and escaped into the East to reform. Balrogs could not do this.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 11:33 PM
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There are no assertions I repeated.. BTW.. I'm still waiting on how and when Gothmog became mortal?

How is Feanor.. Ecth and Fingo being above the peole Sauron beaten and assertion? This is a fact.. and fact supported by battle feats.

It's also not a assertion that Gothmog was in charge of battle and the one leading the charge for Melkor.. If Sauron was more powerful.. he would be leading the way. He wasn't. Gothmog was.. and the reason why is because he's more formidable and the better warrior. This isn't an assertion it's a fact. I listed some of the battles gothmog has lead.. Suaron never lead any when Gothmog was around. There is a reason for this.

So which assertions are you referring to? I'm honestly starting to wonder if you've ever read any of the books.

Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:04 AM
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Supra thinks Gothmog is an orc. His opinion is irrelevant.

I dunno if this has been pointed out, but I just started reading the Silmarillion, and here is something it says:

"Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed."

Depending on how you take this, Sauron's power could be being compared to a Valar.

Oh, and quote is from a letter Tolkien sent to Milton Waldman, who asked for a summary of his setting.


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Last edited by NemeBro on Dec 27th, 2013 at 12:26 AM

Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:18 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually this isn't true at all...

Fingon fought Glaurung when he first appeared... which alone is more than the featless wonders you keep talking about


laughing out loud

Your deliberate (or perhaps ignorant) attempts at twisting events is laughable.

"Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years."

Not only did Fingon do this with a bunch of archers but it was against a young Glaurung who was not yet fully developed and vulnerable.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ecth.. also killed balrogs before he even met Gothmog.. again something greater than than people you mentioned. Shit, just defeating Gothmog alone is vastly superior to anything.


He killed "Balrogs"... At this time they weren't maiar but creatures created by Melko and were far less than those of later versions. Using this story (which is supposedly Tolkien's earliest ME story) is a very weak argument. Hell, to put things in perspective, in these stories dragons are machines and 'Sauron' was a cat possessed by a demon. Nor was Ecthelion even the greatest lord in Gondolin in these early versions.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So no, by feats Feanor... Ecth and Fingon are VASTLY superior to Sauron best victims.. of this there is no doubt.


Only if you have no clue what you are talking about or are twisting 'facts' to suit your argument.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't know how I could forget but I forgot the massive feat of getting Ungoliant to let loose of Melkor when she was in the process of devouring him. It was balrogs who were called and saved the day... Not Sauron.. That is a massive feat for the powers of balrogs to drive away Ungoliant.. who rivaled Melkor in power after devouring so much of the light. Shit he had Melkor helpless to do anything till the balrog saved the day.


First the Balrogs were not "called" as you say. They heard Morgoth scream and then came in their numbers. And Ungoliant, even at this time, is certainly not the equal of Melkor in his prime or even Manwe, Tulkas, or likely any of the other Valar.

It is a good feat none the less, but it was a whole group of Balrogs not one. Using this as a feat for Gothmog is ridiculous.

Last edited by ares834 on Dec 27th, 2013 at 12:35 AM

Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:22 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Supra thinks Gothmog is an orc. His opinion is irrelevant.

I dunno if this has been pointed out, but I just started reading the Silmarillion, and here is something it says:

"Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed."

Depending on how you take this, Sauron's power could be being compared to a Valar.


More likely its simply the might of the Numenoreans. I doubt even Sauron was comparable to even the least of the Valar.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There are no assertions I repeated.. BTW.. I'm still waiting on how and when Gothmog became mortal?


What? He was killed in Gondolin and was unable to reform... Of course he was mortal. Presumably, his impotent spirit still lingers but Gothmog is dead and gone.

Last edited by ares834 on Dec 27th, 2013 at 12:32 AM

Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:28 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
More likely its simply the might of the Numenoreans. I doubt even Sauron was comparable to even the least of the Valar.
Only Sauron's direction is explicitly pinpointed as the deciding factor.

Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:36 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Only Sauron's direction is explicitly pinpointed as the deciding factor.


Sure, but that's because Sauron's direction was to attack Valinor. Sauron himself had absolutely no intention to go to Valinor. He was simply trying to kill off the Numenorians.

Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:41 AM
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Actually you're right, I forgot that Sauron stayed behind on Numenor like a lazy fat ****.


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:51 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Supra
What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?


No one can answer this simple question..

Sauron wins


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2013 12:55 AM
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