So Ares when did Sauron defeat Gandalf the white in battle?
You mean facts like your claim that books military rankings don't equal real life rankings... I'm STILL waiting on the source for that theory of yours. Unless you have some evidence that either Tolkien didn't understand the rankings in question or they didn't intend for them to be the same.. the rankings stand as common knowledge and how he intended them to be. Thus Gothmog as a Captain of Angband is ranked AHEAD of Lieutenant Sauron. If you have a source disputing the validity of this post it. If not the rankings stand.
You mean facts like how you forgot to mention that Gil-Galad and E also died during their fight with Sauron.
Facts like how you said said Sauron wasn't killed those times I mentioned when he certainly was. Just beause the spirit lives and comes back doesn't mean they weren't killed and defeated. When Sentry reforms after MM kills him.. doesn't mean he wasn't killed and defeated. He was.. he just reformed. Same thign with Huan and Sauron.. he was defeated and relatively easily at that. Shit, Suaron couldn't stop a little weakling from dispersing his spirit forever in his own backyard with his forces all around. Pitiful.
You say I was wrong when I said he called out to them.. when in fact that could very well be what happened. I beleive the passage says... he screams out in pain and the balrogs come... He could've screamed help balrogs he could've screamed out in such a way that the balrogs knew he was calling them specifically. The point is, they came and owned somebody Melkor couldn't and Sauron certainly couldn't. NO surprise there cause we know who they warriors are and who Melkor trusted to get the job done in battle. The Balrogs not the politician Sauron.
You can try and hold onto the fact that Gothmog had help with Feanor.. but the fact remains IT WAS A BATTLE. Feanor aslo had help and people were fighting all around them. It was up to feanor to navigate sucha battlefield and not put himself in such a position to have to take on multiple balrogs. Gothmog managed the battlefield to do so and he won. He struck down Feanor himself and dealt the kiling blow to somebody exponentionally above ANYBODY Sauron has ever beaten. Shit Sauron can't beat anybody worth half a crap without dying himself. Ask yourself this... Is it better to kill the best Elf ever with help in a raging battle going on all around you.. or kill mcuh weaker elven/men kings and you yourself die... I'll take beating feanor any which way to also dying like that.
I never said such a thing. I mentioned a battle of wills.
How about you prove that LotR ranks are the same as American ranks. You were the one who brought it up initially. Heck, "High Captain" isn't even a real military rank.
Another lie/incorrect fact.
When I brought it up the first time I said Sauron killed them....
I never said Sauron wasn't killed those times you mentioned. I said he wasn't killed by Huan. And if you read the Silmarillion you would know he wasnt.
A fanon theory nothing more. In the Silmarillion or related writings nothing implies he specifically called the Balrogs.
Nope. I already posted the quote from the Annuals here. Feanor "stood alone" and "long he fought on" against the Balrogs. There wasn't a raging battle going on for all that long. Rather Feanor, alone, battled against a group of Balrogs and an army of Orcs.
Who cares about a battle of wiills.. we're talking about a battle here... A weaker balrog tested Gandalf to his limits and they both ended up dying. Galdalf is above Gil-Galad and E. who killed Sauron in battle. Seems par for the course with Sauron compared to Balrogs
I don't need to prove anything.. it's you that needs to prove these ranking don't apply. Further, in which countries is a Lieutenant ranked ahead of a captain? Seriously.. can you grasp at anymore straws here?
Exactly my point but FAILED to mention that they also killed him... That was a bit of important info now wasn't it?
Was Sauron defeated in battle by Huan? Since you claimed to have read the story... how did Huan win and what happened to Sauron?
It says he screamed out in pain and the balrogs came... It doesn't say he did or didn't call them specifically. HOwever, it's certainly possible that the screams were meant for the balrogs to hear specifically so they could come to his aid. Afterall, that IS hwo came and nobody else. Further, Melkor couldn't even stop what was going to happen to him and he was going to be devoured.. yet the balrogs could.. they must be pretty damn powerful if Melkor couldn't even do what they could. Yet, we also know Sauron little weak ass was no where to be found when he was needed in battle... AGAIN.
I'm starting to think you don't even know the scene in question... are you saying feanor had no help at all and he confronted them all by himself with not a single other elf.. beats maiar or anybody else around?
That proves little to nothing... Sauron is a Maiar and Gandalf also says Saurman is the most powerful of his kind. So that would include Sauron as well. Point is, Gandalf said this and later took down Saruman. So him making statements like this means next to nothing. Battle feats are what matters.
Sauron was left in charge of Melkor's affairs in a overall political sense because he was his puppet. His protege' so to speak. That doesn't make him superior in battle. Captain does exist.. and is simply a reference to being the highest captain.. Point is.. Captain always outranks Lieutenant in pretty much any military ranks. So we know Gothmog was a CAPTAIN.. and Sauron a Lieutenant. It's really that simple.
No you mentioned it later when I called you out on it and your recollection of the battle. Nice try though
Of course he was defeated and beaten easily. shit, that was just one of many times he was defeated. Par for the course for Sauron.
All it says is he screamed out in pain... it says nothing about what he screamed out exactly.. thus my position is just as valid as yours. Besides it doesn't matter if he called for them or not.. what does matter is we know when push came to shove who was better in battle and who Melkor relied on in battle.. it was the balrogs not Sauron. Sauron was held up in the fortress to practice dark magic and carry on for Melkor.. that doesn't make him the best in battle. Which of course we'd know since EVERYBODY and their MOTHER has beaten Sauron in battle. You'd think the many defeats he's had would amke this point crystal clear to you. But for some reason it hasn't.
I'm asking again.. so are you claiming that it wasn't a battle at all.. and it was Feanor alone who was battling everybody and he had no aid what so ever around him. I don't care who took on the balrogs alone.. I'm asking you if this was a battle or not
When did he ever say Saruman was more powerful than him when he was Gandalf the White? And statements are just as valid, specifically since these character hardly have any quantifiable "battle feats".
We know Sauron was left in charge of the war. That's even simpler. Sauron was second in command.
That's a blatant lie. You did no such thing. In fact, you seemed to be implying that Isildur slew Sauron. Heck, why don't you post a quote where you "called" me out.
Beaten easily? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? Huan was cowering in fear from Sauron until Luthein dazed Sauron with the enchantment on her cloak at which time Huan sprang... And he most certainly wan't slain like you said earlier. Before you debate something, it's useful to have knowledge of the material.
No it's not. You have absolutely no basis for your claim.
For a short time Feanor has some elves. But the other elves quickly died and then Feanor, alone, fought against the Balrogs and Orcs for a long time. Just par for the course for Gothmog who can't beat anyone without help. The one time he tries to do something alone he dies. Poor guy.
In the fellowship of the ring he make said statement. Plus in the hobbit... he's clearly subserviant to Saruman and his wishes. Point is, Gandalf made such a statement about Saruman and yet still bested him. Where did he quote you're referring to come from.. are you sure he wasn't referring to the WK.. saying the black rider was still more powerful. I remember him saying that about the WK not Sauron.
you have ONE statement and could you post when that was and where... I thnk that was after Gothmog was already dead and thus it doesn't matter to our convo. What we do know is that when Gothmog and Sauron were both around... Gothmog was the Captain and Sauron the Lieutenant. What we also know is that Gothmog was in charge of the battles and leading them... NOT Sauron. Post any battle which Sauron was in charge of the forces and leading them when Gothmog was around... You won't find it because Gothmog was the one doing the leading. Sauron was in the fortress under lock and key.. if he did enter the mix Melkor surely knew he would die since he's died pretty much everytime he's fought somebody. Of course he'd want to protect his feeble protege
You didn't mention them also killing Sauron which you admitted. My very next post asks if you even know the battle you're talking about and what happened. AT which point.. yes you did clarify that all died. Which was my point.. your original satement left very relavent facts off the table.. no doubt on purpose.
He was beaten easily when Huan attacked which is the point and what I said.. I never said he wasn't afraid or any such thing.. but when Huan attacked Sauron was dealt with easily.
YOu have no basis for yours either.
Which is exactly my point.. IT WAS A BATTLE.. Gothmog used superior tactics to get rid of the other elves and isolate Feanor.. That isn't something to downgrade the feat.. that is EXACTLY what a smart tactician would do. Point is... Gothmog landed the killing and fatal blow that nobody else could. Doesn't matter if he had help... so did Feanor when the battle started.. just cause they mostly died and the balrogs didn't isn't gothmog problem or fault.
Out fighting Feanor and isolating him to deal the deal blow to the greatest elf ever is superior to ANYTHING Sauron has EVER done in his history. IN fact, Sauron hasn't beaten anybody of note without dying himself. Shit, he's lucky to do that.. most times he's drowned or beaten and can't even take out his foe. Sad sad Sauron.
So when he was Gandalf the Gray he claims to be inferior... Yeah, that's true. And no, he was most certainly talking about Sauron not the WK.
Nope. It was well before the Battle of Gondolin and Gothmog's death. Also, I looked into it and I doubt Tolkien is using "Lieutenant" seems to be this variety. IE, Sauron is Morgoth's "second" and when Morogth leaves he takes charge. Which is exactly what happens.
Nope. Another lie. By the time you were asking me if I knew what went down (that's on page 3) I had already posted the passage (which I did on page 1).
Another lie. Post where it is mentioned that he was "easily beaten".
I'm using common sense. You claimed he shouted for his Balrogs but that is never stated or even hinted at. All the text says is he gave a great cry.
You have no clue what you are talking about. Sure, Gothmog may have dealt the final blow (Feanor was already wounded many times previously) but, the fact remains, Gothmog did not deal with Feanor alone he had help. Using you "logic", random Orc 252 who helped in the slaying of Feanor was more powerful than Sauron.
BTW, I already showed that Sauron defeated Finrod who is most certainly of note.
Last edited by ares834 on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:00 PM
I'm curious if even know what the difference between Gandalf the white and the grey is.. I'm starting to think you don't. Point is, Gandalf said he was inferior to Saruman and yet defeated him... saying you're inferior to somebody isn't he be all end all. Sauron has been outright killed by vastly inferior people to Gothmog.. well shit.. gothmog died only once... Sauron has been killed so many times he's probably even lost count. Yet you expect me to believe he's superior to gothmog lol. How does getting your ass kicked so many times show superiority is beyond me.
It doesn't matter as you corrected your quote after I called you on it. Whether you did or didn't.. doesn't change the fact that Sauron couldn't even kill those people inferior to the people on GOthmog list without dying himself. Pitiful.
What he we is he let out a cry... ever heard the saying a cry for help? Obviously you have. SO why couldn't it be thet he cried out for the balrogs to come help him?
Wrong... that isn't how he's using it since it says Sauron is the Lieutenant of angband and gothmog the Captain... Captain in any military rank I'm aware of is above Lieu. No way around that fact buddy.
You're the one with no clue... There was a BATTLE GOING ON.. Gothmog manuevered Feanor in a position where he could be killed and that is EXACTLY what happened. There wree many people fighting at the start.. gothmog took out feanor help... and still maintained his... You act like this takes away from Gothmog killing Feanor.. it doesn't. That is the goal of a battle.. to outwit and use superior tactics to gain an advantage.. that is exactly what Gothmog did to feanor. SOrry buddy.. Gothmog killing feanor is greater than antyhing Sauron has done in his entire history.
You mean besides bringing my own facts to the table that aren't refured and canon? This debate was over before it begun because Sauron has shit for battle feats in comparison to gothmog. Shit his military rank is shit next to gothmog. Shit, he's never seen leading any armies when gothmog was around.. even when the going got tough and melkor was dying.. who was called... balrogs not his pansy lieutenant sauron. Sauron is a politician.. gothmog is a warrior. It was a no contest from the jump. However, you not knowing the facts let alone understanding them is no surprise... after all you thought Morgoth came before melkor... doesn't get more assbackwards than that.
Lies.. and twists... do tell.. what did I twist or lie about again?
You mean like how you tried to say Sauron killed them but foget to mention he was also killed. Then when I called you on it.. you said oohhh yeah he was also killed but it was common knowledge so there was no need to say anything.. only it wasn't common knowledge as the movie doesn't show this and that is what most people have seen.