Luthien is far more powerful than anyone Gothmog has ever fought. She put Morgoth and his entire army (You know, that includes Gothmog) sans Sauron to sleep. She couldn't knock out Sauron alone, and would have died were it not for Huan.
Post the passage where Gothmog was KO'd by Luthien. I don't recall that being the case at all. Again... Why even bring it up anyways.. Sauron was defeated by Huan, and relatively easily I might add. Nothing new for Sauron though.. He's been defeated more times than he's had a meaningful one v one victory. Thta is just par for the course with him.
Let me ask you this.. would you not agree... that when it comes to Tolkien and first age characters... The most powerful ones i.e. kings.. generals etc etc... We're always up front leading the troops? The best of the best were often times out frong and mixing it up.. True or False? Then why was Sauron never leading any armies when Gothmog was around? It was gothmog leading the armies and the charge.. not Sauron. Which of course makes sense because Gothmog is the better warrior and fighter.. Sauron the better politician.
1. This is in The Silmarillion, the same work which depicts anything done by Gothmog. If you don't know this, you don't know the source material, and you are arguing out of your ass.
2. Luthien lost a battle of magic/songs/etc. to Sauron, but she successfully bewitched Morgoth and his court, long enough to pry a Silmaril from his crown.
3. Huan is not just some Clifford clone; he is the Hound of the Valar, and explicitly protected by prophecy which states that he can only lose to the largest werewolf who had ever lived. Sauron shapeshifts into a werewolf, but he is not predicted to be the largest, so he loses. In Middle-Earth, prophecies override circumstance. The same reason why Beren was able to survive the Girdle of Melian when even Ungoliant for all her power, could not.
You're a total and complete moron.. It's clear you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm asking for the specific part or story in the Sil where Gothmog was knocked out.. or you didn't know it was a collection of works and stories did you? Have you ever even picked it up. WHICH PART OR CITE THE SECTION OF THE SIL WHERE GOTHMOG WAS KO'D. Is this another one of your Morgoth.. melkor moments Moosiepoo?
Why are you talkign about Huan defeating Sauron when I was the first person to even bring that up. It's not surprising as he's lost more times than he's done anything significant.
Because I've read said paasage.. I've brought up said feat... I was the first person to bring up Huan defeating Sauron... I don't recall gothmog ever being SPECFICALLY metioned being knocked out. So again... cite me the passage that says gothmog was KO'd. I don't recall that part at all.
Nemebro explicitly stated that Luthien was helpless against Sauron but not against Morgoth. The former incident is in the -same- few pages as describing Huan's rigged victory over Sauron, something you said was proof of Sauron's weakness. Nemebro's correct on the point and your ignorance of the greater context tells me that you don't know wtf you're talking about. It's a "collection of works" all under one title and in one book form, derp. Stop quoting various websites and reread the copy of the book you pretend to have. Quote us some Gothmog badassery while you're at it.
You're the only person in this thread who claims Gothmog is superior to Sauron and the one with the weakest arguments and least evidence. No one is inclined to humor you any more. Prove up or shut up.
Do you know which works make up the Sil? I mean honestly.. you didn't even know it was a collection of many stories put together under one book? You didn't even know that much? I mean I thought you were pretty ignornant on the matter when I saw you say Morgoth came before Melkor.. that alone told me you have zero clue what you're talking about.. If you did.. nobody could make such a basic mistake. You trying to read up on the sil now.. doesn't cover up the fact that you have little to no clue what you're talking about. Now.. which works make up the Sil.. so you seem to laugh at the notion that's a combination of stories
Concession accepted... Gothmog was NEVER EVER specifically mentioned as being KO'd... You sure go a round about way of admitting something so basic. Instead you decide I'll use red herrings and ad hominem fallacies to try and cover up yoru incompetence. Or I'll give you another shot.. cite me the passage where Gothmog was KO'd..
Lastly, I've listed NUMEROUS feats of Gothmog that trump anything Sauron has ever done. Now you're claiming I didn't list any feats LOL.. How cute.. any feat mentioned for GOthmog has been by me.. just because some of you don't like the context or him killing better people than Sauron ever has.. doesn't change the fact that he has.
BTW.. are you claiming Sauron is above Morgoth now?
Where was Gothmog if not in Thangorodrim? Morgoth wasn't warring at that particular point in time IIRC, so where would he have been?
Huan would beat Gothmog 1v1 and he wouldn't have to die to do it. Huan killed Carcaroth, who was so powerful he could break through the Girdle of Melian.
Also, Sauron was sluggish and drowsy during the fight due to Luthien's enchantment, since though she could not defeat him, she was powerful enough to slow him down.
Morgoth lead from the far rear.
Melian and Thingol rarely left their houses.
Just two examples off the top of my head.
You mean like that time Sauron personally took Minas Tirith at the behest of Morgoth?
Gothmog has never actually beaten an elven lord in single combat. He's killed two elves with help from other Balrogs, and the one time he man-fight a powerful elf one on one, he died, with Ecthellion only dying due to apparently being unable to swim, so he drowned.
Sauron has two elven lords, one half-Maian Noldor princess, and an eight foot tall Numenorean king on his resume', and maybe someone else I'm forgetting.
Oh, and it's confirmed that even without the One Ring, he could have conquered Lothlorien and personally killed Galadriel.
Oh, and during the Akallabeth, he actually wards off the power of the ****ing Valar from all of Numenor.
Gothmog has nothing on Morgoth's greatest servant.
A. We aren't given a birthdate for Gil-Galad, we don't know how old he was when he became king.
B. He was passed up for being king of the Noldor after Fingon's death in favor of Turgon due to being young, so him becoming king as a teenager is impossible.
C. He became king in FA510. The First Age wouldn't end until FA590.
D. Fingon died in FA472. Gil-Galad was already born by then, he was fully grown by the time he became king.
So will you concede that Gil-Galad was a child when he became king?
Killing two heroes at once (Without help, so we know he's manlier than Gothmog) who are both more powerful than Galadriel is not impressive?
Ecthelion did, but his feats are not as good as Luthien. Why are you avoiding mention of her like the plague?
Name Feanor's feats besides dying, lol.
Oh I am well-aware of the hype surrounding him, and he probably is the strongest character Gothmog killed (While backed by his entire host of Balrogs and due solely to Feanor's own stupidity), but for a feat-hungry whore like you, does that matter?
The First Age.
Sauron took Minas Tirith before Gothmog died.
Lieutenant as in "a deputy or substitute acting for a superior", not the military rank.
Gothmog didn't outrank Sauron and your insistence that he did flies in the face of all canon. Sauron was Morgoth's greatest and most trusted servant, per the text.
Because he did.
Which is why Morgoth always led his troops from the front, as did Thingol.
Oh wait, no they didn't!
He took Minas Tirith in the First Age.
When was the last time you read the Silmarillion?
You're so wrong it's kind of scary, mostly because you seem convinced you're so right.
I said "the Valar" not "Eru Illuvitar".
I am referring to when Manwe's "eagles" (This may or may not be a metaphor for clouds, I'm admittedly not sure) came and rained lightning on all of Numenor, only for Sauron to casually deflect their bolts as they shot the high temple he built, and his power was such that the Numenoreans "likened him to a god".
And wanna know the best part? Sauron wasn't even wearing the One Ring at the time.
Why do you regurgitate the same farcical point over and over again?
Sauron did lead troops into battle while Gothmog was around. He did kill Elven lords, as Finrod could tell you. You know nothing about Lord of the Rings.
I'm still waiting for this concession ... WHAT ARE GIl-GALAD FIRST AGE FEATS?? You concede he doesn't have any correct? So I was spot on when I said he has no first age feats and Elves of the first age have feats that shit all over Gil-Galad or Elendil. Correct?
By the dates I'm well aware of (which is why I posed the question) he was ONLY KILL AT THE VERY END of the first age.. JUST AS I SAID. Like literally just before the second age was to start. Which again is exactly what I said.. His rule was almost entirely in the second age.. not the first.
Also, I think you're wrong about him getting passed over. I could be wrong here.. but I could've sworn when his father died... he took over along with Turgon and they both ruled.. just one ruled land and Turgon rules another. I'm also positive Gil-Galad shared his reign and wasn't the only king of Noldor for sometime. Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I remember it. I'll look it up.
What feats of Luthien are you referring to? I'm not avoding anything.. that is an okay feat... well I should say.. probably his best feat. Even then, it's not like it was a one v one battle nor did he kill Luthien either if I remember correctly. I don't know why you go on and on about it.
So you concede Ecth had far superior feats to Gil-Galad and Elendil correct?
Gothmog was around... He wasn't at that battle at all... do you know when Gothmog died and the battle of M.T. was?
I keep on bringing it up because the fact is.. in most cases the strongest are leading the troops. There are exceptions but we see this much more than not. Do you concede this point? You talk about me avoiding stuff.. you keep avoding simple concessions like the plague. So, with some exceptions the best of the best are usually out front.. Yet, when Gothmog was around... Sauron was NEVER leading any troops.. Why is that? If he was so badass why did he never lead any battles and Gothmog was behind him taking orders. NEVER, NOT ONCE do we see this. You do concede that for most of the major battles when Gothmog was alive.. HE was leading not Sauron correct? Why is that?
That is YOUR version.. post the narrative in the Sil that says that is what Lietenant means. Post that narrative please or concede that is your interpretation of it. Mine is the more universal view.. which is captain is above Lieu.. you agree that is more universal correct?
I'm not referring to that time.. I'm referring to when Numenor was floaded by Eru.. and Sauron DIED because of it. Did you not say that Eru coudn't kill Sauron if he wanted to. Should I find the quote LOL BWHAHAHHAHAHA
Elendil and Gil-Galad above Galadriel.. WTF... What on God's green earth are you basing this on?
You've assumed that all First Age elves are universally superior to all elves otherwise, period, etc. and then taken this measurement directly to oppose what you perceive to be the arguments of others. I don't think you're getting any closer to the truth by this line of thinking.
First off, one does not need "First Age" feats to be equated to First Age characters. This is a benchmark you have assigned without any basis in text or deed. Third Age Glorfindel > First Age Glorfindel. There's nothing inherently awesome about the era that makes people uber. If you insist that there is, you need to provide some proof from the source material.
If you can't prove up using the text, then you must concede the point.
Now, to humor you, there is the implication that those who have seen the light of the trees possess a lightness of spirit, a fire in them, a near-divinity that made them fierce enemies for Morgoth. However, this doesn't help Gothmog at all concerning FŽanor. FŽanor had been fighting for ten days before they crossed swords, and was well ahead of the main body of his army, with just a few mooks in tow. Gothmog had an indetermined amount of Maiar/Balrogs around to help him circle and kill FŽanor, and even then the elflord fought on for a long long time.
Comparatively, Sauron took Luthien out in no time at all. Luthien, who with a song, bewitched all of Angband. His magic and power was superior to hers. Then there is, like Nemebro suggested, his feats against ManwŽ's storms/eagles, and his seven-year defense of the Siege of Barad-dŻr (which he nearly broke just by appearing outside of his gates at the end) and then he destroyed Elendil and Gil-Galad alone in combat. Gothmog hasn't killed anyone in combat solo; the one lone battle he had he lost to a low-level, unarmed and dying elf.
So the reality here is, you have NO FEATS OMG HURR to defend Gothmog, unless you amend the thread title to "Gothmog and his band of cronies".
Gil-Galad lived for 80 years before the breaking of Angband, and then a further 3441 years of the Second Age. In any case, the time in which he lived doesn't negate his power. Elrond, his herald and second-in-command, was both older and descended from a Maiar, yet considered lesser in power.
You should have looked it up before you posted. This is the internet age of multi-tabbed browsing. There's little excuse.
In any case, Gil-Galad stayed with Cirdan and the elves of the Haven until after Gondolin fell.
Why should you "remember correctly" anything? You should be rereading the material or using supplement material to reinforce your memory. If you did indeed read the source material in full.
This isn't "IMO IIRC THIS IS TRUE" debating here.
Ecthelion, guard captain of the reclusive city of Gondolin, fortunately killed your hero Gothmog in clumsy unarmed combat while mortally wounded.
Versus two individuals who bottled up Sauron in his keep for years and slew him in combat without being wounded or damaged before the fight in anyway.
Sure thing bro.
What difference does it make? All Maiar have been around since the beginning of time.-
Why must a concession be made? You are saying that all warband leaders are explicitly the strongest, because they are warband leaders. This is circular. Gothmog may indeed be the best Balrog to have ever lived, and a threat to all his underlings. This doesn't impact his inferior status against Sauron. Sauron, who has better solo combat records, better magical ability usage, and who is explicitly described by Tolkien himself as the greatest darkness and danger besides Morgoth himself.
Mothmog almost didn't get a name, so you know how awesome Tolkien intended for him to be.
... Or just being outright ignorant of source material.
Why would Sauron need to duplicate Gothmog's job? You could look at it as Sauron has far better talents of planning, manipulation, and creation as a Maiar of AulŽ's order, and either stayed more by his master's side or did his own independent projects. Gothmog's position as warband leader does not explicitly tell us his overall pecking order.
Morgoth never lead any troops in battle; Gothmog did.
Gothmog > Morgoth?
This is retarded here.
noun: lieutenant; plural noun: lieutenants
a deputy or substitute acting for a superior.
"he accepted his top lieutenantís resignation with deep regret"
Morgoth's forces weren't using conventional US Army ranks or anything. Morgoth was the undisputed leader of his own forces; Sauron was his most trusted lieutenant (not Lieutenant), his second in command, and Morgoth was a captain (not Captain) of the forces. Tolkien served; he would not be so dense as to make a mistake or transpose ranks had he decided to use them. He did not. There are no 'private Orkk-Grubbnuks' or "Petty Officer First Class Groogg" among Morgoth's ranks.
I don't get what this even means. Eru created everyone; he can kill everyone. Nothing is outside of his power, so what does this prove?
Galadriel did pretty much nothing in the First Age of note, avoided most major conflicts and skated by. She was Gil-Galad's vassal in the Second Age with her husband. It wasn't until she met Celebrimbor and received one of the Rings that she started to be a powerful Lady in her own right and was later regarded as one of the most powerful of elves on Middle-Earth in the Third Age.
Pretty much, the only time Galadriel is considered a threat to anyone is well after Elendil and Gil-Galad are in their graves.
Last edited by Stealth Moose on Feb 13th, 2014 at 08:49 PM