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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » The entire clone wars jedi council VS 30 sith warriors from the sacking of coruscant


The entire clone wars jedi council VS 30 sith warriors from the sacking of coruscant
Started by: PTforthewin

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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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Yoda and Mace solo.
(Yoda might be able to pull it off alone)


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 01:08 AM
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Astor Ebligis
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, easily. Many of those Jedi in the actual battle lasted for some time, even though most of them were simple Knights below Oppo or even most of the lesser council members.


The difference is that Oppo would become a target if he was BMing everyone, not just some random noob.

quote:
One, aside from being a solid fighter himself (who has 4 arms and is known to saber-fight and force-fight at the same time),


I'm not so sure he can effectively apply BM and fight at the same time.

quote:
he'll be guard by literally 11 masters. If even a couple of the weaker ones stay back (Say, Even, Kcaj, and Adi purely to guard), attacking Oppo will be very difficult.


11 masters guarding against 30 warriors.

quote:
Most of the council are quite capable of facing more than one significant enemy at a time, but furthermore, fighting side-by-side means the effect of numerical superiority will be reduced, and one or two foes at a time is significantly easier (and will thus up the kill-counts) than charging into the group as Zallow did (though that is more disruptive of the enemy attack, and I fully expect Windu and a couple of the other strong ones to do the same thing).


Not at all. You don't easily choose to fight multiple opposition, multiple opposition choose to fight you. You can't simply distract one enemy and force another to also be distracted; you guard against one enemy, and the other has no obligation to stay and is free to go and strike the tactical objective. You would have to literally be so good that you can force your opponent in the exact direction of the other opponent, as forcefully as the other is capable of heading in that certain direction. This is not a viable tactic.

What happens if they try your strategy is either of these two options:

1. Each Jedi tries to distract a single Sith Lord, engaging them in a duel and not being as free to mvoe as they usually would, while 19 free Sith warriors all move to attack Oppo.

2. The Jedi position themselves so there's literally no space around/path to Oppo for the Sith to take. This is all well and good, but they end up losing not only one of their number, but are also forced to adopt extremely limiting positions simply to protect their one member, while the Sith warriors get to fully focus on adopting the most advantageous positioning the attack the guarding Jedi. of course, the Sith are still free to attack Oppo with the Force, and as I said, there would be about 19 free Sith warriors, all free to attack with TK or lightning or whatever they wish to.

Hardly a good strategy.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 01:41 AM
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Lord Stark
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Actually I just recalled Shaak Ti took on what...16 Magnaguards at once? She could easily down 5 Sith Warriors.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 02:01 AM
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Q99
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Btw, to give an idea of how many Sith Warriors others have taken in different times, Kol Skywalker killed 7 and a bunch of troopers before being lightning in the back by a powerful Lord (Darth Nihl) in the assault on the Jedi Temple at Ossus, and Antares Draco killed 6-7 at once during the mission to Korriban to free Marasiah Fel (he'd already killed a few earlier too)... and in neither case did they have anyone to watch their backs, that was fighting off foes coming from different sides.


Now, while one can put Kol aside for being a Skywalker and Grand Master, and Draco certainly is a badass, it'd take a lot of arguing to convince me that Antares Draco is above war-focused Jedi Council member level, let alone way above.

quote:

1. Each Jedi tries to distract a single Sith Lord, engaging them in a duel and not being as free to mvoe as they usually would, while 19 free Sith warriors all move to attack Oppo.


Yea.... you know that just because they're holding off one, or more, sith lords, doesn't mean they're out of the way, right?

If you send 6 sith to fight 6 Jedi that are surrounding Oppo, then rather than having a clear path to your target, you have 12 people in your way taking up space until some of them die. And, like, physically in the way, if you try tossing lightning through a thick fighting, you're likely to either hit the backs of sith warriors or the sabers of Jedi, or Master Yoda counter-pushing everyone who tries, because he's Yoda and he can do that.

It also takes only a few Jedi to make a sizable force dome barrier against attacks.


You can use distractions to pull off one or two people, but in groups this big, it's easy for the Jedi to form perimeters and simply not allow openings, and to fight shoulder to shoulder. They won't move to allow a path, and all 30 Sith warriors cannot engage at the same time because there will not be enough room around the Jedi with the Jedi fighting side-to-side and back to back for everyone to fit in.

Nor will there be easy opening for force attacks if there's a bunch of sith warriors in melee combat... there will be if they stay back and all try the force, but, collective force power, the 12 > the 30, so that's a rub game too.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 02:05 AM
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Astor Ebligis
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Btw, to give an idea of how many Sith Warriors others have taken in different times, Kol Skywalker killed 7 and a bunch of troopers before being lightning in the back by a powerful Lord (Darth Nihl) in the assault on the Jedi Temple at Ossus, and Antares Draco killed 6-7 at once during the mission to Korriban to free Marasiah Fel (he'd already killed a few earlier too)... and in neither case did they have anyone to watch their backs, that was fighting off foes coming from different sides.


Now, while one can put Kol aside for being a Skywalker and Grand Master, and Draco certainly is a badass, it'd take a lot of arguing to convince me that Antares Draco is above war-focused Jedi Council member level, let alone way above.


If you want to discredit the feat of killing that number of Jedi/Sith in combat, you'll need more than "it'd take a lot of arguing to convince me that Antares Draco is above war-focused Jedi Council member level, let alone way above."

We largely judge these characters by feats, and that is one spectacular feat, why would that not positively colour your perception of Antares Draco.

Plus, not sure you can say those Sith were as good as the strike team from the sacking of Coruscant.

quote:
Yea.... you know that just because they're holding off one, or more, sith lords, doesn't mean they're out of the way, right?


And as I said if they intentionally position themselves in such a way, they are not positioning themselves in the tactically most effective way for the immediate battle. Meanwhile the Sith can recoordinate their attack and use the Jedi's tight formation against them, pushing them all into the centre until it breaks, making use of the fact that the Jedi won't commit to a change in positioning etc. I also think you underestimate the ease with which a free combatant would be able to move past while tied up with someone else.

quote:
If you send 6 sith to fight 6 Jedi that are surrounding Oppo, then rather than having a clear path to your target, you have 12 people in your way taking up space until some of them die. And, like, physically in the way, if you try tossing lightning through a thick fighting, you're likely to either hit the backs of sith warriors or the sabers of Jedi, or Master Yoda counter-pushing everyone who tries, because he's Yoda and he can do that.


Remind me when Yoda or his peers have Force pushed approximately 20 Force Users at once.

BTW they could simply sue TK, problem solved.

quote:
It also takes only a few Jedi to make a sizable force dome barrier against attacks.


Which further ties up more Jedi.

You can use distractions to pull off one or two people, but in groups this big, it's easy for the Jedi to form perimeters and simply not allow openings, and to fight shoulder to shoulder. They won't move to allow a path, and all 30 Sith warriors cannot engage at the same time because there will not be enough room around the Jedi with the Jedi fighting side-to-side and back to back for everyone to fit in.

Nor will there be easy opening for force attacks if there's a bunch of sith warriors in melee combat...[/quote]

Refer to the above.

quote:
there will be if they stay back and all try the force, but, collective force power, the 12 > the 30, so that's a rub game too.


I don't know how you think you can be so sure of this. You're either severely underestimating the Sith warriors, overestimating the regular council memebrs, or overestimating the contribution Yoda would add to the team.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 02:18 AM
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Q99
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quote:
Astor
If you want to discredit the feat of killing that number of Jedi/Sith in combat, you'll need more than "it'd take a lot of arguing to convince me that Antares Draco is above war-focused Jedi Council member level, let alone way above."

We largely judge these characters by feats, and that is one spectacular feat, why would that not positively colour your perception of Antares Draco.


I'm saying, it's positive of Draco, but he doesn't strike me as way above most council members, certainly not over twice as much (he's a peer to several Jedi combatants of his time after all, so I'd basically have to say Legacy Jedi council equivalent >> CW Jedi council members).

So I'm left with two options: Either put the Legacy characters *well* above CW Jedi council members, or put the CW Council members, the combat focused ones at least, reasonably close to Draco's performance.

Putting the average council members at just 1 or 2 sith warriors is just speculation itself, not based on any particular event, so I view the later of my two scenarios as more likely.


quote:
Plus, not sure you can say those Sith were as good as the strike team from the sacking of Coruscant.


They were guards at an important facility at Korriban (the one guarding the most valuable prisoner they had), so they were likely to be strong.

Even if they were 2/3rd as strong as the Strike Team Sith, to give them a fairly conservative number, that'd make Draco worth at least 4 Strike Team sith.


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Last edited by Q99 on Apr 16th, 2014 at 04:22 PM

Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 04:18 PM
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PTforthewin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carthage
Jedi council might have this but sustain MASSIVE casualties with possibly only Yoda, Windu, and whichever one doesn't get wtfpwned by Malgus, Adras, and the Sith. Its actually kind of interesting to think about who would live. Good thread.
adraas got his ass kicked by Ven Zallow do you think he even stands a chance against a council member since all council members from the CW are stronger then Zallow

Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 05:15 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by PTforthewin
adraas got his ass kicked by Ven Zallow do you think he even stands a chance against a council member since all council members from the CW are stronger then Zallow


Gonna disagree with that one, Zallow was one of the top warriors of the Jedi at the time.

Still, there are a few councilors here stronger than him, and more not far behind him.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 05:29 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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I shall clarify some things here:-

All of the Sith Warriors who were dispatched for Sacking of Coruscant mission were actually battle-hardened/accomplished veterans of war (all had killed some Jedi during battles and not just Republic regulars). Darth Malgus, Lord Adraas and Lord Praven were among these Sith Warriors but this doesn't implies that others whom have not been identified yet were mooks or something.

I believe that the Jedi Council is outgunned. And Ven Zallow is massively underrated.

Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 06:56 PM
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Intrepid37
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You really said he was more clever than me, Nephthys?


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 07:00 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I shall clarify some things here:-

All of the Sith Warriors who were dispatched for Sacking of Coruscant mission were actually battle-hardened/accomplished veterans of war (all had killed some Jedi during battles and not just Republic regulars). Darth Malgus, Lord Adraas and Lord Praven were among these Sith Warriors but this doesn't implies that others whom have not been identified yet were mooks or something.


But at least two were fairly easily dispatched by Zallow, and the non-Lords weren't slicing through Jedi left and right like the lords were.


While veterans, they were certainly 'elite mooks' next to the likes of Malgus and Zallow.



quote:

I believe that the Jedi Council is outgunned. And Ven Zallow is massively underrated. [/B]


Zallow's awesome, but the Council is fairly awesome too.


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Old Post Apr 16th, 2014 09:04 PM
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Zett
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Only Coleman Kjac, and Eeth Koth are shitty duelists.


Eeth Koth with injured hand dueled on par with Grievous.

Jedi Council takes this, easily, with no casualties.

Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 02:02 PM
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Lord Stark
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zett
Eeth Koth with injured hand dueled on par with Grievous.

Jedi Council takes this, easily, with no casualties.


Two saber Grievous, but the point still stands it was with Magnaguard back up.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 05:26 PM
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Astor Ebligis
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
[B]I'm saying, it's positive of Draco, but he doesn't strike me as way above most council members, certainly not over twice as much (he's a peer to several Jedi combatants of his time after all, so I'd basically have to say Legacy Jedi council equivalent >> CW Jedi council members).

So I'm left with two options: Either put the Legacy characters *well* above CW Jedi council members, or put the CW Council members, the combat focused ones at least, reasonably close to Draco's performance.

Putting the average council members at just 1 or 2 sith warriors is just speculation itself, not based on any particular event, so I view the later of my two scenarios as more likely.


It's also not unheard of for Force Users to perform far beyond their means when fighting for someone they love romantically, not to mention due to PIS.

I really don't think you can use this incident as a means to discredit the feat of singlehandedly defeating a group of around 7 high level Jedi/Sith at once.

quote:
They were guards at an important facility at Korriban (the one guarding the most valuable prisoner they had), so they were likely to be strong.


I wouldn't put that on the same level as the strike team. The guards at the prison are on duty over an extended period of time, and thus placing high level Sith there ties them up from other activity they might otherwise be doing. Thus I feel they would put reasonably competent, but very much dispensible Sith on station there.

The strike team however was assembled for a singular mission, and one of absolutely huge importance, so I'd imagine they would have assembled relatively very high level Sith Lords to carry out the mission. We know it was important enough that numerous named Sith Lords that we know are extremely powerful were there. I don't see how you wouldn't put them at least at master level personally (master level in combat prowess against Jedi specifically).


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Old Post Apr 18th, 2014 07:05 PM
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Based
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda and Mace solo.

Old Post Apr 18th, 2014 08:01 PM
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The Ellimist
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lmao @ this thread

Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi Wan slaughter them by themselves.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 05:38 PM
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deathslash
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao @ this thread

Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi Wan slaughter them by themselves.


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