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Phoenix vs. Surtur
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Wonder Man
Most Powerful Avenger

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Phoenix vs. Surtur

A God vs. Devil battle. Can the Phoenix survive against the might of Surtur?

Attachment: marvel-girl-marvel-superheroines-18611935-259-194.jpg
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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 05:59 PM
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guy222
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Phoenix


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 06:31 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by guy222
Phoenix

Yeah, especially if it's the classic PF and not the joke that showed up to AvX.


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 06:33 PM
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guy222
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Agreed


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 06:43 PM
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carver9
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What was jokish about the Phoenix in AVX?


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 07:09 PM
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guy222
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Poorly conceived


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 07:25 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by guy222
Poorly conceived

thumb up x's 1000000000.


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 07:25 PM
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carver9
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Examples of the entirety of the Phoenix being poorly conceived.


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 07:34 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Examples of the entirety of the Phoenix being poorly conceived.

Exhibit A : AvX 1
quote:
The Phoenix Force, a cosmic parasite....

And it went to sh|t from there.


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 07:38 PM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
Exhibit A : AvX 1

And it went to sh|t from there. [/B]


Are you talking about Earth defenders beating it via plot? Tell me SOMETHING that gave you an opinion on the ENTIRETY of the Force sucking that issue. Stop saying stuff because it sounds good, Zop.


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 07:43 PM
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zopzop
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Are you talking about Earth defenders beating it via plot? Tell me SOMETHING that gave you an opinion on the ENTIRETY of the Force sucking that issue. Stop saying stuff because it sounds good, Zop.

I just told you what was wrong with it Carver.

There's more though, piling on the "cosmic parasite" idiocy, there was :
a) the Iron Fist/K'un-Lun/PF connection idiocy
b) the panic over Hope hosting the PF despite the fact that Rachel Summers did it for YEARS and never once lost control
c) the fact that Phoenix only went Dark Phoenix AFTER being manipulated by Mastermind (ie it's not inherently evil, Jean never lost control without an outside force, Mastermind, tampering with her emotions)
d) the Wanda Chaos Magic/Phoenix Force opposition idiocy, when nothing like this was ever hinted at in 30+ years of Marvel continuity
e) wiping out a universal force without any kind of cosmic repercussions (when the last time this was tried, by Galactus, the universe was dying with it).

I could go on.


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 08:03 PM
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guy222
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Yep


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Old Post Apr 15th, 2014 08:40 PM
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GalacticStorm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
I just told you what was wrong with it Carver.

There's more though, piling on the "cosmic parasite" idiocy, there was :
a) the Iron Fist/K'un-Lun/PF connection idiocy
b) the panic over Hope hosting the PF despite the fact that Rachel Summers did it for YEARS and never once lost control
c) the fact that Phoenix only went Dark Phoenix AFTER being manipulated by Mastermind (ie it's not inherently evil, Jean never lost control without an outside force, Mastermind, tampering with her emotions)
d) the Wanda Chaos Magic/Phoenix Force opposition idiocy, when nothing like this was ever hinted at in 30+ years of Marvel continuity
e) wiping out a universal force without any kind of cosmic repercussions (when the last time this was tried, by Galactus, the universe was dying with it).

I could go on.


Suuuup stick out tongue

Long time bro hows you?

I too thought the main AvX story was pants, however the tie ins were good. Especially Uncanny X-men.

I agree with a lot of your points, but with regards to d) The reason it wasnt mentioned in the past 30 years is because the opposition isnt some ancient opposition thats always been in place, it was an opposition that was initiated from the moment Wanda decimated the mutant population thereby impeding evolution which the Phoenix Force perpetuates. So with that in mind why would it be mentioned previously?

With regards to e) the Phoenix Force wasnt wiped out. It was just dissipated as its work was done. We know from canon it is indestructible and we know from canon that if its tie to reality is interfered with then it spells the end of reality. The fact that there were no universal consequences and you have future Phoenixes (Quentin Quire) returning to the present also demonstrate that, as does the current Wolverine and the X-men story arc.

Issue 3 of this series again confirms that the Phoenix Force is energies of creation from which the universe was forged and that as such the Phoenix Force is embedded within all that is.

(please log in to view the image)


It also states that the Phoenix Force is so concerned with evolution because to fully wield its power you need to be of a particular evolved state (canon tells us omega level mutants) so that she can bring about the end and become whole again.

(please log in to view the image)

Something Grant Morrisons New X-men explored with its revelation that Phoenix hosts are the pinnacle of evolution, "the ultimate mutation":

(please log in to view the image)


The Big Bang connection being something thats been canon with regards to the PF for years

"If im going to build a Phoenix killer ive got to figure out a way to crack universal expansion" i.e the Big Bang.

http://imageshack.com/a/img594/9589/avxzone017.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img141/8905...icfour52212.jpg

its role in perpetuating the creation cycle (its beginning and end) is also something thats been stated for years:

http://imageshack.com/a/img862/5713...24story2p15.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img28/7550/uncannyxmen10473.jpg


Went off on a bit of a tangent there mate, but you get the drift. As stated in the AvX arc the Phoenix only manifested to reverse Wandas machinations and it was to do this through its chosen vessel Hope. So the conclusion of AvX had Hope with Wandas aid reject the Phoenix power as opposed to attempting to become some messiah like figure (and potentially losing her way) and the dispersed power sparked the revival of the mutant race.

As far as the X-men know the Force is assumed dead because they cannot detect it. However subsequent storylines have shown us what we should have known anyway...that the Phoenix lives. As the Big Bang it is all energy and matter within reality. If the Phoenix Force was no more, reality would be no more. That is all smile


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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Apr 17th, 2014 at 06:12 AM

Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 06:03 AM
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zopzop
The Weeknd

Gender: Unspecified
Location: NYC

quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Suuuup stick out tongue

Long time bro hows you?

I too thought the main AvX story was pants, however the tie ins were good. Especially Uncanny X-men.

I agree with a lot of your points, but with regards to d) The reason it wasnt mentioned in the past 30 years is because the opposition isnt some ancient opposition thats always been in place, it was an opposition that was initiated from the moment Wanda decimated the mutant population thereby impeding evolution which the Phoenix Force perpetuates. So with that in mind why would it be mentioned previously?

With regards to e) the Phoenix Force wasnt wiped out. It was just dissipated as its work was done. We know from canon it is indestructible and we know from canon that if its tie to reality is interfered with then it spells the end of reality. The fact that there were no universal consequences and you have future Phoenixes (Quentin Quire) returning to the present also demonstrate that, as does the current Wolverine and the X-men story arc.

Issue 3 of this series again confirms that the Phoenix Force is energies of creation from which the universe was forged and that as such the Phoenix Force is embedded within all that is.

(please log in to view the image)

"If im going to build a Phoenix killer ive got to figure out a way to crack universal expansion" i.e the Big Bang.

http://imageshack.com/a/img594/9589/avxzone017.jpg

It also states that the Phoenix Force is so concerned with evolution because to fully wield its power you need to be of a particular evolved state (canon tells us omega level mutants) so that she can bring about the end and become whole again.

(please log in to view the image)

Something Grant Morrisons New X-men explored with its revelation that Phoenix hosts are the pinnacle of evolution, "the ultimate mutation":

(please log in to view the image)


The Big Bang connection being something thats been canon with regards to the PF for years

http://imageshack.com/a/img141/8905...icfour52212.jpg

its role in perpetuating the creation cycle (its beginning and end) is also something thats been stated for years:

http://imageshack.com/a/img862/5713...24story2p15.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img28/7550/uncannyxmen10473.jpg


Went off on a bit of a tangent there mate, but you get the drift. As stated in the AvX arc the Phoenix only manifested to reverse Wandas machinations and it was to do this through its chosen vessel Hope. So the conclusion of AvX had Hope with Wandas aid reject the Phoenix power as opposed to attempting to become some messiah like figure (and potentially losing her way) and the dispersed power sparked the revival of the mutant race.

As far as the X-men know the Force is assumed dead because they cannot detect it. However subsequent storylines have shown us what we should have known anyway...that the Phoenix lives. As the Big Bang it is all energy and matter within reality. If the Phoenix Force was no more, reality would be no more. That is all smile

WB GS!

I've been good, and you? You missed some crazy stuff going on on this board GS big grin


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The Birds, Part 2.

Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 06:09 AM
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GalacticStorm
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Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by zopzop
WB GS!

I've been good, and you? You missed some crazy stuff going on on this board GS big grin


I can imagine. big grin

Ive just been getting on with life. Got less and less time to come on here as i get older stick out tongue


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 06:15 AM
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GalacticStorm
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Gender: Male
Location: United Kingdom

As for this match up, the full Phoenix Force is a multiversal power as demonstrated on panel and as stated in its latest handbook entry.

Surtur is not on that level. smile


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 06:16 AM
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abhilegend
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Phoenix wins.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 07:07 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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Surtur wins.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
What was jokish about the Phoenix in AVX?

Everything.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 07:21 AM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
Surtur wins.

Why?


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 07:25 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Why?

Feats.


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Old Post Apr 17th, 2014 07:44 AM
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