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KMC Mid-Herald Belt Battlezone: Abhilegend vs Smurph
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

Mindset and Bentley both contacted me so WHICHEVER JUDGMENT COMES IN FIRST SHALL BE OFFICIALLY COUNTED.

I'm glad we had such a good judge turnout. An actual surplus for once


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2014 10:41 PM
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Smurph
------

Gender: Male
Location:

Oh f*ck off. I'm ready to find out I lost (or won!).

Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 10:18 AM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

that kinda attitude won't play well with the judges...... lol


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Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 12:59 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Existere
Oh f*ck off. I'm ready to find out I lost (or won!).


Well, lets give the man what he wants

quote:

DarkSaint85 wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 05:08 PM:
So. Abhi has an interesting strategy.

I personally think of it as a legal move. He's not duplicating Eradicator x2, he's merely created an empty Superman body which is controlled by Eradicator (so, for example the same as creating a mecha body to use). I'd allow it. Two on one. Things are getting hot in hurrrrrr.

Problem is, this new body will be flesh and blood. For all the arguments about electronic Eradicator, Superadicator will be subject to Cable's powers and wouldn't have 'electronic senses'. There was a throwaway line about enhanced senses, but that was it.

Not to mention, he doesn't have many feats. Abhi showed one, but what else can Superadicator do? There were loads of scans of recent Superman, but we've already seen how many of them were after Mongul trained him etc.

Therefore, I was not convinced that having him on the field is all that useful. No TP resistance feats, no durability feats, etc. I am betting that a telepathically hidden Cable actually takes control of this Superadicator. And then goes to town on Eradicator with his new BFF in tow. A God Cable with his full attention, PLUS a sunamped Superman? Boom.

BUT

Eradicator's multitasking is good. Damn good. I came into this match thinking I had seen it all with God Cable's multitasking skills. Eradicator however is even better. Transmuting the planet, the sun, and putting the beating on Superman? Not bad. I reckon he can take Cable, and Superadicator on at the same time. On top of that, I remain unconvinced that Cable would be able to tear Eradicator apart, based solely on the deflections of lasers and deflecting of Lightmaster.

Where does this leave us?

Long story short, having Superadicator will actually hurt Abhi more. But it will not matter to the match, ultimately.

My judgement:

Abhi wins this match.
quote:

Rao Kal El wrote on Jun 28th, 2014 12:33 PM:
That was a good read.

Must inform that this is my first time as a judge, so I am trying the be the most objective and critical for both sides and I kept my own arguments outside of it and only trying to reach a conclusion based on the arguments presented by the two debaters in here.

Ok so lets go to the point by analyzing the match and the characters involved

Prep time and Match starts

According to Existere

God Cable instantly becomes telepathically invisible
establishes a telekinetic shield that will constantly repair and reinforce throughout the battle

According to Abhi

Krypton Man goes intangible
Creates a clone of Superman
Transfer portion of his program to the clone
Amps the clone with sun energy
Creates a skintight forcefield around the clone

There a few problems that I see in both theories

God Cable might be telepathically invisible for regular minds, not to technology, so I doubt Cable will be effectively invisible to Krypton Man as krypton man is basically a sentient program of kryptonian technology

Now I have no doubt Krypton man at full power will be able to create a clone, where I have my problem is seeing Krypton Man splitting his program in two and occupying two bodies at the same time, the only times when that has happened there is another conscious being around and to me there was not enough evidence to demonstrate that the sentient Krypton Man program can ALONE control two bodies at the same time, there is an indication that the Krypton Man program can operate not at a 100% and split in two but no indication that it will be able to control two bodies at the same time by itself with out other essences.

I don't think it will be duplication as the program will be splitted in two by percentages, I just think there is a lack of evidence to prove that tow percentages of the program can control two bodies by itself, alone and with no outside essences or personalities.

Based on what I read

God Cable will be able to create his forcefiled, but wont be able to hide from the Krypton Man program
Krypton Man will go intangible and can create the clone however the lack of conclusive evidence will prevent him to use the clone.
Krypton Man has shown to be capable of control other beings however that seems more likely he is manipulating the sentient being rather than possessing the body with his program/essence

In the heat of the battle

God cable could be able to manage the bull rush based on his hability to destroy and reform instantly that suggest that his mind is working at great speed and therefore He could be able to react at least with his mind to a bull rush from Krypton Man.

The shields created by God Cable will work and protect him, but I think they will be a minor problem which Krypton Man will be able to overcome

God Cable has show to be capable of funneling and redirecting some sorts of energy, however this is an energy manipulator/program that to me operates in a higher payload of what God Cable could be able to handle.

For what I saw with the lightmaster example is that he somehow with his shield made lighmaster to bounce off the shield and redirected him to the machine. If God Cable were capable to manipulate lightmaster like it was being suggested, God Cable should have done when lightmaster was attacking him right before he sent him to space and while there are examples showing that God Cable can funnel energy, someone who can manipulate the Sun and Earth at the same time shows a greater capability for energy manipulation.

I think God Cable's strategy in trying to manipulate the energy of an energy manipulator of the caliber of Krypton Man will end up the same way He did vs Silver Surfer.

Telepathy and T-VO

For God Cable to implant suggestions in a program He will need to hack it, I don't think this will a feasible tactic, Krypton Man is in essence a sentient program resulted from kryptonian Technology.

T-VO is a technique Superman learned from the archives of the fortress of solitude created by Krypton Man weather this T-VO came into play 10 years later it is implied that T-VO is part of the Kryptonian heritage/culture therefore saved in the Krypton Man program.

Krypton Man will have all the theories (not the experience) pertaining to use T-VO

While I don't want to get into the ABC logic, I will think that Krypton Man will have all the information and theory on T-VO not the experience of Superman, However this amount of theory and information Krypton Man has on T-VO was enough to overcome the experience Clark had.

T-VO was a technique superman learned from the information contained in the fortress created by the Eradicator, Krypton Man should know about tvo techniques as he is the protector of the kryptonian culture.

Telepathy is God Cable's butter and bread, I think God Cable has the advantage here as he is more experienced in this field and do not know if Krypton Man's amount of data on theories will be able to compensate for the lack of experience.

If We were to use the ABC examples shown by Abhi, I will say Krypton Man will mind phuck God Cable, however all this instance of Superman and T-VO were wrote by different people so is hard to get an accurate estimate based on this 3 or 4 people interpretations of Superman's T-VO, Though T-VO has been portrayed as an ubber technique constantly that even Humans can use.

Having said that, The Krypton Man essence that shown the ability of T-VO was at less than peak on this instance, taking that into consideration the T-VO vs Telephaty will be a fight that I will like very much to see.

However I have to give the advantage to God Cable mainly because of experience but is a close advantage that won't end up being the game changer

As far as God Cable being able to track lightmaster thougts, I think is a 50/50 chance with lightmaster as lightmaster was bale to sneak up on him
This applies to lightmaster who is a super powered human with a familiar brain pattern for God Cable, I think the 50/50 odds will go down for God Cable when he tries to track a Sentient Kryptonian program manifested in energy form.


Having said all this I believe the following:

God Cable has better chances in defeating The Krypton Man if they decide to battle this out with TP by 60%
Krypton Man has better chances in defeating God Cable if they decide to battle this out in energy manipulation by 60%
Krypton Man has better chances in defeating God Cable if they decide to battle this out in a physical confrontation by 60%

Based on this I think Krypton Man has better chances of coming out victorious in this match.


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Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 02:48 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

P2

quote:

MF DELPH wrote on Jun 29th, 2014 04:27 PM:
Ok, just want to lay out a couple points about why my decision is what it is before hand.

1) Abhi's attempt to create a tangible body as well as create a duplicate sans the solar energy required (per the scan) seems a bit far fetched, and possibly illegal, per the OP rules, so I didn't take either point into consideration further on into the match.

2) Abhi inexplicably seems to be arguing for characters (and feats) that aren't available to him in this match. He chose a specific version of Eradicator (Krypton Man) but keeps using feats and powers associated with other versions, or outright other characters. Due to this I've had to pretty much overlook 50-70% of the scans and arguments he's made. He's not using Superman and he's not using Eradicator after he assumes a physical form. This kind of leaves Abhi at an unfair, but self inflicted, disadvantage because he spent so much time arguing powers and counters which aren't available to him by seemingly conflating Superman, Eradicator, and David Conner/ Eradicator with Krypton Man into one composite being with interchangable abilities and feats, which would be like using HP Doomsday's feats and abilities for DOS Doomdsay or Zero Hour Parallax's feats for any version of Hal Jordan. It simply doesn't work that way, and I actually feel it does this match a disservice that he wasn't set straight on this early on so we would all be operating on the same playing field. Anyway, due to this, I'm judging this as Abhi only has the energy being "Krypton Man" version, and it's feats/abilities, only.

Just the Krypton Man version is very powerful and likely could take God Cable out. The problem is the mode of attacks that Abhi presented doesn't seem feasible. He spent too much time trying to shoehorn in Sundipped Superman and T-Vo into the match rather than basing his attack on what the character he was actually using could do.

I think it was established by both sides that this version of Eradicator (Krypton Man) was an energy being, though Abhi was trying to be coy about it by conflating all versions of Eradicator into one. Due to this I'm left having to vote for Smurph as I do think Cable can disperse this version (Krypton Man)'s energy form, and he presented a simple, easy to follow argument and provided evidence to support his lone claim. I think Abhi outfoxed himself trying to bring too much Kryptonian might to the battlefield and not firmly establishing what he was actually there. He likely had the tools to win, and I do think this version of Eradicator could feasibly beat God Cable, just not in the manner he presented. It was just too scattered and convoluted.
quote:

Omega Vision wrote on Jun 30th, 2014 03:05 PM:
All right.

Here's my judgment:

Omega Vision's ruling.

I'm a little busy right now preparing a lesson plan, so I didn't have much time to read the match and I might have missed a few details. That said, I think I got a good sense of the gist of things and noticed a few trends that I'll comment on here:

1) I don't agree with Smurph that lacking Superman's mind would discount all the speed feats for the Superman clone. That rang incredibly false to me. Even if fighting ability is something "learned" that doesn't mean the clone wouldn't be able to throw a punch. To add to that, while God Cable fighting Surfer does show that he's superhumanly fast, I still think the Superman clone/Eradicator would have the clear speed edge.

However...

2) I appreciate Abhi's honest attempt at fasttalking and loophole chasing, but I have to side with Smurph on the Superman clone creation being an obvious violation of the spirit of the rules. So no Superman clone.

That leads us to the energy being debacle and the T-Vo.

3) Even if T-Vo was within Eradicator's powerset (I'm not sure on this matter, I've decided to suspend judgment on this), it strikes me as an example of an overkill instakill tactic, which is again against the rules.

4) All in all I'm noticing the same issue here with Abhi's strategy that I noticed in his match against Digi in the tourney: he drafts characters with the sole aim of creating amped Superman clones. He might try to dance around the rules, but to my mind that kind of sleight of hand can't compete with an honest, straight up strategy built on actual showings that don't require feat projection or extrapolations.

So, yeah, my vote goes to Smurph.
quote:

Bentley wrote on Jul 1st, 2014 04:11 AM:
Ok, let's do this.

Debating.

While both posters adressed each other posts for the most part I feel that Smurph went the extra mile to cover his bases and counter things even when they were considered debunked. It was also more easy to read and to the point, I feel that overall this presentation helped his case greatly and it was rather convincing. Abhi did rely too heavily in ABC logic to evaluate how his T-vo defenses would work, even if I thought they could work overall. If you want to use Superman feats, you better run Superman. I give Smurph a slight notch, since they were otherwise pretty evenly matched.

Strategy


Smurph had a simple plan which made it easier to defend, but I also think that his posts were best suited to attack Abhi's arguments instead of dealing with his overall plan. I do believe he failed to provide enough backing of two key elements in this battle: Cable's TP dealing with an artificial intelligence and Eradicator's different iterations as different characters with distinctive powersets (and thus not counting as Eradicator). Sure, the argument devolved into a legality issue over these elements, but the prevalence of both posibilities helped Abhi's argument in my eyes. I give Abhi the best game plan overall.


Outcome

Abhi building and pumping a kryptonian body has a lot of punch, I don't think it violates the cloning rule by itself as it can be managed as an independent or even controled by distance tool. Cable's telekinesis is powerful but I don't think it will easily dispel either potential body of Eradicator's. TP is predictably the real wild card in the game.

Anyways, I'm going to give this part to Abhi, his choice of banking against TP and taking more chances in the physical confrontation played to his character's advantage.

As such, my vote goes to Abhi. I don't necessarily think he showed superior debating skills, but he was persuasive, he had an argument and pushed it properly to the match. Both posters should be recognized for the effort put into this kind of match, congrats to both!


WINNER: ABHILEGEND


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Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 02:50 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Existere
Oh f*ck off. I'm ready to find out I lost (or won!).
It was a 2-2 deadlock so I had to wait lmao


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Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 02:56 PM
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illadelph
aka Rakim Illa

Gender: Male
Location: Retirement.

[Consider this my Minority Dissenting Opinion]

Now that this match is officially over and the judge votes are in, I'd just like to point out that this rule:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by psycho gundam
13. ( Prep) You will receive a 5 minute briefing about your opponent. You cannot gather gear that would not be considered standard gear.


Essentially invalidates most of Abhi's plan, and is a main reason why I said I disregarded it, and why I made this post in the off-topic thread back on the 24th:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
I just read through that thread. If we're going to judge it we're going to need some guidance on the duplicate rule as well as which character Abhi is actually using so that all the judges are operating on the same playing field.


The prep, as stated, was intended to be a 5 minute briefing on the opponent and they could only gather standard gear. Creating a clone of Superman certainly isn't "gathering standard equipment" for Krypton Man, and inhabiting that clone with his programming would be duplication (he's creating a second body to use in battle) and a violation of Rule #5, but even if you didn't consider that a duplication rule break, it's a moot point since the only thing that occurs in prep is a briefing on the opponent per Rule #13 and a clone of Superman is certainly not standard equipment. Not sure how that was not only apparently unclear to Abhi, but somehow overlooked by 3 of the other judges.

And to be clear, this is not shade, an indictment, an insult, or anything resembling any form of hostility, just an observation and, well, fact, per the rules in the OP, that I'm pointing out.


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PSN: Illadelph12Prime, Haksaw_Jim_Thugn - Tumblr: Mighty-Illactus
>Z<

Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 07:05 PM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

^I did not think Abhi could use his clone and for what I read most of us felt the same way.

I though and have no doubt that KM will be capable to create the clone, but not use it, so in my opinion the clone was just a useless waste of energy for KM

But is a really good point about not being standard equipment.


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Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Last edited by Rao Kal El on Jul 1st, 2014 at 08:00 PM

Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 07:57 PM
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illadelph
aka Rakim Illa

Gender: Male
Location: Retirement.

I understand.

I'm just pointing out that, per rule, nothing Abhi claimed to do in prep was legal and should have been dismissed. The issue isn't the capability of Krypton Man (who likely could have won, if argued legally), the issue is that per rule all that occurred during prep was a briefing, and the participant could only gather 'standard equipment'. By rule, everything Abhi did in his prep post was illegal, so all subsequent actions based on that rule dismissed prep would collapse and be nullified. That should have been addressed early on but wasn't and as such Abhi built his entire attack on a false premise; that being him having a sun-dipped clone under his control, and being able to access all the abilities of Superman and future versions of Eradicator that weren't specific to Krypton Man.


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Old Post Jul 1st, 2014 08:40 PM
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abhilegend
Prince of All Saiyans

Gender: Male
Location: Always second place

Hurray! I actually won against Smurph?


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Old Post Jul 2nd, 2014 02:30 AM
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"Id"
The Man of Tomorrow

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Diablo Corps

Personally I thought Smurph won this match, but congrats to Abhi. Good luck defending your reign.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 06:59 AM
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quanchi112
Disney

Gender: Male
Location: Best company on the planet

quote: (post)
Originally posted by "Id"
Personally I thought Smurph won this match
thumb up


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 11:49 AM
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DarkSaint85
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

Guess you guys should've stepped up to judge


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 12:35 PM
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quanchi112
Disney

Gender: Male
Location: Best company on the planet

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Guess you guys should've stepped up to judge
I don't judge.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 12:36 PM
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DarkSaint85
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A rewording, then, perhaps.

Perhaps you should've given your opinion when it mattered.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 01:08 PM
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quanchi112
Disney

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A rewording, then, perhaps.

Perhaps you should've given your opinion when it mattered.
Again, I don't care that much but seeing as how an illegal tactic fooled the majority of the judges I will never compete/participate in a battlezone done in this manner.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 01:10 PM
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DarkSaint85
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Again, I don't care that much...


quote:

...I will never compete/participate in a battlezone done in this manner.


OK. Keep that in your back pocket when someone challenges you, its a good excuse.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 01:15 PM
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quanchi112
Disney

Gender: Male
Location: Best company on the planet

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85




OK. Keep that in your back pocket when someone challenges you, its a good excuse. [/B]
I am doing a battlezone now. I've done more than anyone on kmc. I just know an injustice when I see one. That being said its over so no point in rehashing.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 01:25 PM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Again, I don't care that much but seeing as how an illegal tactic fooled the majority of the judges I will never compete/participate in a battlezone done in this manner.


Not trying to start and argument but just to clarify, What majority?

Let me re-post what I said about the clone

"Krypton Man will go intangible and can create the clone however the lack of conclusive evidence will prevent him to USE the clone."

On my side the clone was not used, there was simply no clone and if there was one it was just there inert like a dead body that KM wasted energy and time into create. A useless tactic

Delph, Omega and me did not allowed the use of the clone

Please be more accurate on your statements


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Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 02:20 PM
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quanchi112
Disney

Gender: Male
Location: Best company on the planet

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
I understand.

I'm just pointing out that, per rule, nothing Abhi claimed to do in prep was legal and should have been dismissed. The issue isn't the capability of Krypton Man (who likely could have won, if argued legally), the issue is that per rule all that occurred during prep was a briefing, and the participant could only gather 'standard equipment'. By rule, everything Abhi did in his prep post was illegal, so all subsequent actions based on that rule dismissed prep would collapse and be nullified. That should have been addressed early on but wasn't and as such Abhi built his entire attack on a false premise; that being him having a sun-dipped clone under his control, and being able to access all the abilities of Superman and future versions of Eradicator that weren't specific to Krypton Man.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Not trying to start and argument but just to clarify, What majority?

Let me re-post what I said about the clone

"Krypton Man will go intangible and can create the clone however the lack of conclusive evidence will prevent him to USE the clone."

On my side the clone was not used, there was simply no clone and if there was one it was just there inert like a dead body that KM wasted energy and time into create. A useless tactic

Delph, Omega and me did not allowed the use of the clone

Please be more accurate on your statements
Again, I am just agreeing with Delph. I stand by his assessment. Drop it.


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Old Post Jul 3rd, 2014 02:24 PM
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