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What are numbers?
Started by: riv6672

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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by fostersAccount
That's exactly my point. Happy Dance

It's just different ways of writing the same number, it doesn't broaden your understanding of them in any sense.

Last edited by Astner on Jun 22nd, 2014 at 06:22 PM

Old Post Jun 22nd, 2014 06:10 PM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Basically, is math an invention or a discovery? I think, more and more, philosophically we're shifting from the notion of 'invention' (for measuring quantities) to 'discovery' (of the underlying order to the universe).

No, it's an invention. A tensor—for instance—can be used to express a certain relation in nature. But the tensor itself isn't physically there, just like the number 2 isn't hovering above a pair of apples.

Old Post Jun 22nd, 2014 06:19 PM
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Shabazz916
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
We don't have to physically be out there; we can make accurate measurements with telescopes and other detection devices (eg, recent detection of gravitational waves has further confirmed our mathematical understanding of the inflationary period during the Big Bang). Heck, it's basically how theoretical physicists "envision" the universe: as a set of constants and their dynamic relationships.

It is because numbers are "universal," we've been able to have robot probes fly by multiple planets and moons in our solar system with amazing accuracy. We can predict, years ahead of time, where these celestial bodies will be. And from what we've been able to observe in interstellar or intergalactic space, the properties of super-distant bodies also appear mathematically predictable (eg, I believe it is how the presence of dark matter surrounding our galaxy was discovered, as well as the discoveries of supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies, and even the discovery that our universe is experiencing accelerated expansion. All done by observation and math).

It is, in fact, the universal applicability of math to virtually everywhere in the observable cosmos that has prompted some scientists to wonder if math is a discovery rather than an invention.


they math can't find a plane in the damn water.. so yeah ill believe they can use a microscope to measure darkness

Old Post Jun 22nd, 2014 06:56 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
No, it's an invention. A tensor—for instance—can be used to express a certain relation in nature. But the tensor itself isn't physically there, just like the number 2 isn't hovering above a pair of apples.
'E' always equaled 'mc^2', whether we ever discovered this mathematical relationship or not. We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them, eg, like the numeral '2'.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shabazz916
numbers help us on earth...
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shabazz916
the math can't find a plane in the damn water...
Hey, no one's perfect.


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Old Post Jun 22nd, 2014 09:56 PM
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Shabazz916
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
'E' always equaled 'mc^2', whether we ever discovered this mathematical relationship or not. We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them, eg, like the numeral '2'.

Hey, no one's perfect.


thats why it says it only helps us on earth. notice i didnt say in thee sea

Old Post Jun 22nd, 2014 10:42 PM
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riv6672
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Thats a little nitpicky, though..stick out tongue


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 02:35 AM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
'E' always equaled 'mc^2', whether we ever discovered this mathematical relationship or not.

ΔE = Δmc˛ is a mathematical expression of a relationship in nature deduced from postulates and observations. We don't know if this expression perfectly describes the phenomena, what we do know is that it describes the phenomena well enough for practical purposes, i.e. atom bombs and nuclear reactors, and that's all we know.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them, eg, like the numeral '2'.

Would you call ΔE=mΔv˛ a discovery even though it doesn't describe any relation in nature? Probably not.

We discovered the phenomena, we invented the expression.

Last edited by Astner on Jun 23rd, 2014 at 06:28 PM

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 06:21 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
We don't know if this expression perfectly describes the phenomena, what we do know is that it describes the phenomena well enough for practical purposes, i.e. atom bombs and nuclear reactors, and that's all we know.
A philosophical point, to be sure, and I agree. We don't know if our entire reductive-materialist model is valid, but it is (apparently) quite reliable. And that's good enough to treat what we discover as a "real" deal, a viable as-if, for all current intents and purposes.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
We discovered the phenomena, we invented the expression.
My friend, we're basically saying the same thing:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
We did not invent this relationship, nor others found in nature, only the symbols for expressing them.

I think our differences are semantic.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 09:50 PM
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riv6672
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Wars have been fought over semantics. sad


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 10:02 PM
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illadelph
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I think 'numbers' is an invention as it's a lexicon we've imposed on quantitative values which exist independent of our labels, but it's possible that it is also an emergent property of reality (since at a base quantities simply exist, and intelligent life can acknowledge them).


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 10:39 PM
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fostersAccount
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What do they all mean (please log in to view the image)

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 10:46 PM
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riv6672
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eek!


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 11:00 PM
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Robtard
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The importance of numbers:


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2014 11:09 PM
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KillaKassara
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Any number is merely the measurement of a quantity.

This is the most basic concept.

"The brain does much more than just recollects, it analyzes, synthesizes, it generates abstractions. The simplest thought, like the concept of the number one, is an elaborate logical underpinning."

-Carl Sagan on the human brain.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2014 03:13 AM
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riv6672
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That quote seems to go back to the lions that were discussed...


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2014 11:43 AM
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