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Can non-existence exist?
Started by: MF DELPH

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illadelph
aka Rakim Illa

Gender: Male
Location: Retirement.

Can non-existence exist?

Simple but complex question:

Can there be a true 'nothing', or would 'nothingness' still be a state of existence meaning it would need to 'exist', therefore negating that 'nothing' is truly 'nothing'?

Can non-existence exist?

Discuss.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 06:44 PM
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Mindship
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Picture a sphere whose center can be anywhere and whose radius is infinite. Other than that sphere, nothing exists.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 08:58 PM
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illadelph
aka Rakim Illa

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So no.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 09:09 PM
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Stoic
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Can you get something from nothing? No you can't, because there was nothing to take from. Math proves this, unless you go into negative figures, but even then there is something to take from, in this case there is nothing. It's like that Stevie Wonder tune goes, nothing from nothing leaves nothing, you gotta have something.... blah blah blah.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 09:27 PM
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Shakyamunison
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Nothingness can exist for no time, then it becomes something.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 09:51 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
So no.
No, yes. Nothing, literally, exists outside the infinite sphere. How could something? It can't, not even darkness or 3 dimensions. Nothing is nothing, unimaginable. But it exists in the presence of infinite existence. The ultimate yin and yang.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 10:08 PM
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illadelph
aka Rakim Illa

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That would still be 'no', no? The state of non-existence would exist, meaning it exists, meaning the exterior of that sphere exists.

*edit

Btw, I know connotation can't be conveyed in text, so I just want to let you know there's nothing dismissive or contentious in my replies in this thread. Just civil curiosity.


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Last edited by illadelph on Jun 26th, 2014 at 10:29 PM

Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 10:25 PM
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Shabazz916
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umm yes its called space... yes it something out there but for large parts it is nothing

Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 10:43 PM
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iscaremonkeys
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Can non-existence exist? its non existing so no...............

Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 11:07 PM
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Shakyamunison
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by iscaremonkeys
Can non-existence exist? its non existing so no...............


But if something doesn't exist, then that is nothing.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 11:08 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
That would still be 'no', no? The state of non-existence would exist, meaning it exists, meaning the exterior of that sphere exists.
It exists by its absence. It's a paradox, which is generally what you get when asking ultimate-type questions.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Btw, I know connotation can't be conveyed in text, so I just want to let you know there's nothing dismissive or contentious in my replies in this thread. Just civil curiosity.
Funny, I was sensing earnest, civil curiosity.


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2014 11:55 PM
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illadelph
aka Rakim Illa

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Just wanted to make sure that the second part didn't come across as an assertion. Glad it didn't.

*edit

So existence can be absent (in an absolute sense)? There CAN be absolutely 'nothing'? That's what you're saying?


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Last edited by illadelph on Jun 27th, 2014 at 12:24 AM

Old Post Jun 27th, 2014 12:21 AM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
So existence can be absent (in an absolute sense)? There CAN be absolutely 'nothing'? That's what you're saying?
Imo, in its most absolute sense: yes. If existence is infinite, there are no 'external' features or dimensions, no beyond. Nothing.


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2014 01:53 AM
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Shakyamunison
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Imo, in its most absolute sense: yes. If existence is infinite, there are no 'external' features or dimensions, no beyond. Nothing.


Therefore nothingness does exist until we talk about it. wink


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2014 01:54 AM
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BlackZero30x
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Re: Can non-existence exist?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Simple but complex question:

Can there be a true 'nothing', or would 'nothingness' still be a state of existence meaning it would need to 'exist', therefore negating that 'nothing' is truly 'nothing'?

Can non-existence exist?

Discuss.


Im going to say that "existence" is all we know so to imagine a form of non-existence is almost impossible. If Non-existence is impossible then that in and of itself would prove that there is a such thing as non-existence. If "non-existence" didn't exist then it itself would be lingering in non-existence".

Makes sense to me lol


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2014 02:37 AM
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Stealth Moose
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Given that all abstract thought is based on ideas and relationships gleaned from empirical sensory data (i.e. you know the concept of 'sphere' only because you have seen one and can reimagine it that way), this question can't be answered. That is because the complete absence of all things is not something that can be sensed, and those who are sensory deprived quickly go insane.

Therefore the answer is "undetermined".


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2014 03:11 AM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Therefore nothingness does exist until we talk about it. wink

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Given that all abstract thought is based on ideas and relationships gleaned from empirical sensory data (i.e. you know the concept of 'sphere' only because you have seen one and can reimagine it that way), this question can't be answered.


Essentially, this all points to the limitations of human imagination, conception and certainly language. Imho, the question of nothingness is "unanswerable" in that it forms an unsolvable paradox. In order to discuss "nothing" we want to picture or conceive of it as something, but then it's not nothing anymore. And even though I think this sentence -- "Nothing exists in the presence of infinite existence." -- takes a decent stab at it, upon first reading it, how can one not go "Huh?"

If I was gonna put a theological spin on this, I could say, "God created nothing by being everywhere."


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2014 11:49 AM
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Shakyamunison
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Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

Nothingness is all-around us. Let me introduce you to the Planck length!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2014 07:29 PM
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Mindship
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And if this weren't enough...

If nothing is outside everything, is everything inside nothing?


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2014 10:31 PM
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Omega Vision
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The real question is if existence exists.

Most of the time when people think of existence, they're either thinking of matter/energy or consciousness. I guess some people might think existence is a combination of the two.


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Old Post Jun 28th, 2014 11:06 PM
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