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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Darth Vader vs Emperor Vitiate


Darth Vader vs Emperor Vitiate
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even on a nexus Vitiate needs time to concentrate to use his TP, and as Revan displayed, his focus can be easily interrupted.

His standard lightning isn't anything Vader shouldn't be able to stop with his lightsaber--Both Revan and the Hero of Tython are testaments to this. His Telekinesis is arguably superior to Vader's, but if it is, the difference would probably be relatively minimal. His illusions could either be dispelled, or easily dissipated via lightsaber strikes. The Emperor's FLS that overwhelmed Revan and Tol Bragga is the greatest threat to Vader that the Emperor poses without able preparation.

Unless you can recall something else, of course.


Only easily interrupted because Revan had a defense. Do you think Scourge could have easily interrupted him while he was curled up in a ball from psychic agony?

Revan and the Hero blocking his lightning doesn't mean Vader can. Revan at least has far superior feats against lightning than Vader has, and the Hero fought a weakened Vitiate. Plus Revan only blocked single bolts with his lightsaber.

What about sorcery? I don't recall Vader having much showings against it.


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 06:52 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is one of the most powerful force users in galactic history.

Cute. Except you forget the fact Revan has greater hype then Darth Vader, yet still was beaten by Vitiate.
He was listed among the most powerful Jedi Masters, Sith Lords, and Force-sensitives in galactic history, as Vader was. Except that is merely the start. He was awed to be the greatest warrior in not only his age (which consist of Sith Lords such as Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma shortly before him), but also in all of known Republic history (well before his prime). He was the most powerful Jedi in an age even greater then the Prequel Trilogy (also way before his prime), said by Darth Malgus to be able to personally dominate entire worlds, put Darth Malak into a shock by slaughtering his droid and Dark Jedi armies, and oh yeah, was more powerful then the Sith Strike Team could possibly imagine.

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: And just prepare for update 3.0. Being like the heart of the Force will be the least of your concerns. smokin'


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 07:03 PM
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Nephthys
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Do you have any info on 3.0? If so PM me please.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You said Vader has no feats with regards to dealing with lightning with his saber, which is false, considering he's defended against Dooku's.


Nah, I said he had no feats suggesting he can block Vitiate's lightning. I know he possesses the technique, but he's shown none of the ability with it that would be needed. Not every berk with a lightsaber can block lightning of Vitiate's caliber.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate has no feats with lightning to indicate he could overpower the saber defense of someone as strong as Vader.


Uh, yes he does. I know you're aware of them, so I'm not sure why you're saying this. What makes you think Vader would do better than the Strike Team? Vitiate could easily conjure the lightning storm then hit Vader with his charged burst while he's struggling through it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Being strong has a lot to do with it. A Kenobi level force user can use the force to draw lightning onto their saber, so it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to know how to defend against lightning via saber. The rest comes down to physical strength and/or how strong the lightning is in order to continue containing it with a saber. Vader has strength feats to suggest he could push through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, whereas Vitiate has no lightning feats to suggest he could overpower an individual as strong as Vader.


No it doesn't. It's more about your ability to contain and draw the lightning into the blade. Malgus didn't overpower the Jedi in The Third Lesson because the dudes strength wasn't enough, his lightsabers weren't blown from his hands, he just couldn't contain it and it spiraled around him f*cking him up despite him leaning forward onto his blades and actually trying to stagger through it. Likewise in Deceived, Malgus couldn't fully contain Adraas' lightning and it burned his hands. To suggest that any Kenobi level force user with big muscles can bull through Vitiate's (or Sidious') lightning is dumb, I'm sorry.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader knows about mental shields, which is how Revan blocked Vitiate's TK attack.

Yes, if Vitiate wastes his attention on trying to TP Vader, Vader could hurl Vitiate with his superior TK in a split second.

Revan did manage to force hurl Vitiate when the latter tried to TP him, despite being on a DS nexus. Vader has superior TK feats to Vitiate, so I'm not seeing why he couldn't use it to his advantage.


Any well trained Jedi or Sith knows about mental shields. That's not how Revan blocked Vitiate's telepathy attack, he did so with a technique he gained through experiencing it first hand. There's no indication that a basic mental shield can do the trick. You think Revan had to be taught about them though his experience? That he didn't know about them when he first walked into Vitiate's throne room? His master was Traya, a notable telepath and he has vast knowledge on the Force. It didn't help him. It won't help Vader.

There's nothing indicating Vader can attack Vitiate while being dominated.

Vader doesn't have the feats to TK Vitiate. He is not that far above Revan in that department who couldn't TK an IG who was merely drawing from Vitiate. Revan only hurled Vitiate when his defenses where down and by opening himself up to both sides of the Force simultaneously.


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 07:14 PM
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Dominis
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Ant, all that is nice, but Vader has greater strength feats and force feats, and was stated to be 80% of Sidious. Plus Revan is not nearly as durable as Vader is. Plus Vitiate was on a dark side nexus against Revan.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, I said he had no feats suggesting he can block Vitiate's lightning. I know he possesses the technique, but he's shown none of the ability with it that would be needed. Not every berk with a lightsaber can block lightning of Vitiate's caliber.



No, you need to go back and read what you wrote.

Braga and HoT managed to momentarily push through Vitiate's lightning, and they haven't the feats to suggest they approach Vader in strength or durability.

Vader can absorb lightning with his blade, and even if some bolts manage to hit Vader, it's not going to take Vader out, given that Vader has tanked far more destruction than what a few bolts that may hit him can cause. Heck, he took a sustained full brunt lightning attack from SK to an opening in his chest plate. He can take some bolts that might pass his saber defense.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes he does. I know you're aware of them, so I'm not sure why you're saying this. What makes you think Vader would do better than the Strike Team? Vitiate could easily conjure the lightning storm then hit Vader with his charged burst while he's struggling through it.



Vader is stronger and far more durable than any member of the strike team, unless you could provide some feats for them in those areas.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't. It's more about your ability to contain and draw the lightning into the blade. Malgus didn't overpower the Jedi in The Third Lesson because the dudes strength wasn't enough, his lightsabers weren't blown from his hands, he just couldn't contain it and it spiraled around him f*cking him up despite him leaning forward onto his blades and actually trying to stagger through it. Likewise in Deceived, Malgus couldn't fully contain Adraas' lightning and it burned his hands. To suggest that any Kenobi level force user with big muscles can bull through Vitiate's (or Sidious') lightning is dumb, I'm sorry.



No, it's not dumb. When Windu was struggling against Palpatine's lightning, he said he had no more strength left, which would imply his physical strength, unless you think he was talking about TK. Even in the movies, you can clearly see Windu exerting himself physically.

I didn't say Obi Wan can successfully handle Vitiate's or Sidious's lightning, only that it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to draw bolts onto their blade. Also, your lightsaber doesn't have to be blown completely from your hands to be overpowered by it. As for Malgus, well I can't help that he didn't successfully absorb Adraas's lightning.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Any well trained Jedi or Sith knows about mental shields. That's not how Revan blocked Vitiate's telepathy attack, he did so with a technique he gained through experiencing it first hand. There's no indication that a basic mental shield can do the trick. You think Revan had to be taught about them though his experience? That he didn't know about them when he first walked into Vitiate's throne room? His master was Traya, a notable telepath and he has vast knowledge on the Force. It didn't help him. It won't help Vader.



None of them compare to Palpatine's level of TP except for Vitiate. Vader was the apprentice of the most powerful telepaths in history and constantly tried to hide his thought and emotions from him, so comparing Vader to an average force user with basic shields, is silly, especially since Mara, a mere Emperor's hand, has stronger mental defenses than basic shields.

Also, what special defense did Revan use? He said he shielded his mind from Vitiate.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's nothing indicating Vader can attack Vitiate while being dominated.



There is nothing to suggest that Vitiate can instantly dominate Vader's mind, so yes, Vader could use a TK attack faster than Vitiate could penetrate his mental defense.

As for Vitiate's domination of Revan and Malak, they were already falling to the dark side, and were mentally vulnerable, plus Vitiate prepared for them. Vader isn't mentally unstable like he was when he was falling to the dark side. He's already accepted his dark side persona and is now a master of it.

Vader has never dominated the mind of someone as powerful as Vader. Even the writer who created Vitiate doesn't even think his TP is that powerful. I'll take his opinion over yours. Unless you could provide some instances that didn't require prep or Vitiate having to render his opponents unconscious first.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader doesn't have the feats to TK Vitiate. He is not that far above Revan in that department who couldn't TK an IG who was merely drawing from Vitiate. Revan only hurled Vitiate when his defenses where down and by opening himself up to both sides of the Force simultaneously.



Vader is a superior TK user to Vitiate himself and his feats are better. Vitiate's best TK feats only rival Vader's while he's on a nexus. So yes, based on demonstrated feats, Vader is far superior to Revan. Not to mention Vader would be just as amped as Vitiate on a nexus, which Revan was not.

It's funny how you TOR fans get all riled up when someone suggests Ventress has comparable TK to Revan, but expect the PT fans to accept unsupported claims that Revan's TK rivals Vader's. No, just no.


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 08:18 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote:
Only easily interrupted because Revan had a defense. Do you think Scourge could have easily interrupted him while he was curled up in a ball from psychic agony?


Quote pls. Also, unlike Scourge, Vader has considerable TP feats of his own.

quote:
Revan and the Hero blocking his lightning doesn't mean Vader can. Revan at least has far superior feats against lightning than Vader has,


Is that so? Because I recall his battle against Vitiate is the only time we see Revan deflecting lightning with his lightsaber.


quote:
and the Hero fought a weakened Vitiate.


Fair enough, but that battle also took place within one of the most powerful concentrations of the Dark Side in history.

quote:
Plus Revan only blocked single bolts with his lightsaber.


Didn't he also block a stream of it at one point, but it halted his charge?

quote:
What about sorcery? I don't recall Vader having much showings against it.


I don't recall Vitiate ever applying it in combat either.

Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 09:20 PM
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The Merchant
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I think Vader can pull off a win. Fast and strong enough in the Force to at least replicate what Revan did.


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 09:35 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote:
Cute.[/i] Except you forget the fact Revan has greater hype then Darth Vader, yet still was beaten by Vitiate.


This may (or may not) be true, but hype only goes so far.

quote:
He was listed among the most powerful Jedi Masters, Sith Lords, and Force-sensitives in galactic history, as Vader was.


thumb up

quote:
Except that is merely the start.


Yep, though the same could be said for Vader.

quote:
He was awed to be the greatest warrior in not only his age (which consist of Sith Lords such as Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma shortly before him), but also in all of known Republic history.


Regardless, those two you mentioned are likely the greatest Republic warriors in that span, so it's only a little more impressive on the whole. It's also an in-universe statement from a mercenary, so it's really not the most credible.

By the way:

'This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.'


And in the generations preceding him, there were Jedi such as Yoda, Hero of Tython, and--coincidentally--Revan.

quote:
said by Darth Malgus to be able to personally dominate entire worlds,


Tulak Hord conquered hundreds of worlds in his lifetime. Not that it isn't impressive, but it's something that can be said about many of the greats.

quote:
put Darth Malak into a shock by slaughtering his droid army,


You mean the Darth Malak that was confident he could best Revan?

Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 09:41 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Merchant
I think Vader can pull off a win. Fast and strong enough in the Force to at least replicate what Revan did.


Lose?


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 09:45 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quote pls. Also, unlike Scourge, Vader has considerable TP feats of his own.


"Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation."

Really? All I can recall is him reading a half-baked Luke's thoughts and mind tricking some imperial officer to walk out of an airlock. Hardly considerable.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Is that so? Because I recall his battle against Vitiate is the only time we see Revan deflecting lightning with his lightsaber.


Whether with lightsaber or hands, the same basic technique is used to contain the lightning, it just changes how you diffuse it, into your palm or into the blade. Regardless Vader has shown nothing to indicate he can block lightning as powerful as Vitiates.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Fair enough, but that battle also took place within one of the most powerful concentrations of the Dark Side in history.


Yeah, but I still feel it's important to note in regards to how "easy" it is to block his lightning.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Didn't he also block a stream of it at one point, but it halted his charge?


Nope, another bolt.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't recall Vitiate ever applying it in combat either.


But he obviously can. erm


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 10:23 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, you need to go back and read what you wrote.

Braga and HoT managed to momentarily push through Vitiate's lightning, and they haven't the feats to suggest they approach Vader in strength or durability.

Vader can absorb lightning with his blade, and even if some bolts manage to hit Vader, it's not going to take Vader out, given that Vader has tanked far more destruction than what a few bolts that may hit him can cause. Heck, he took a sustained full brunt lightning attack from SK to an opening in his chest plate. He can take some bolts that might pass his saber defense.


I said that Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that he could push through Vitiate's lightning.

Vitiate's attack was split across a wide area and multiple attackers. It's just Vader here. The combined power Vitiate used against all 5 Strike Team members will be solely focused on him. I highly doubt he'll just run through it.

He lost to a full brunt attack from SK through his chest plate. erm That Vader can "tank" it doesn't mean he can keep fighting after receiving that kind of damage. He survives plenty, but he's still hurt and like with Revan Vitiate will just keep pouring more and more power into him until he goes down.

So question: If this was Sidious, would you still be arguing that Vader could plow through his lightning? I'm just curious, I don't want to start anything. This is merely an honest question about your opinion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is stronger and far more durable than any member of the strike team, unless you could provide some feats for them in those areas.


Not combined. Vitiate won't be dealing with 5 attackers here, he'll be solely focusing it on Vader. He can buy himself a few seconds to charge up the lasah at the least.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not dumb. When Windu was struggling against Palpatine's lightning, he said he had no more strength left, which would imply his physical strength, unless you think he was talking about TK. Even in the movies, you can clearly see Windu exerting himself physically.

I didn't say Obi Wan can successfully handle Vitiate's or Sidious's lightning, only that it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to draw bolts onto their blade. Also, your lightsaber doesn't have to be blown completely from your hands to be overpowered by it. As for Malgus, well I can't help that he didn't successfully absorb Adraas's lightning.


It is kind of unintelligent. I never denied that physical strength had something to do with it, it does and it is A factor, only that its the sole deciding factor after you can contain lightning. That's not true at all, as evidenced by the examples I provided. Also your example is pretty poor since strength can easily refer to Force strength as well as physical strength.

It does when the lightning is supremely powerful. You think Kenobi could handle Sidious level lightning if he had like, Hulk strength? He couldn't, because his force ability is far too insufficient to deal with that kind of power. It doesn't have to be blown from your hand to be overpowered because your lightsaber defense can be overwhelmed in more ways than just the physical. Vader cannot handle lightning on the scale of Sidious or Vitiate even with his lightsaber. Unless you have feats suggesting otherwise, that is.

I... wasn't suggesting that it was your responsibility to dictate canon. So you not being able to help being wrong doesn't really excuse anything.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
None of them compare to Palpatine's level of TP except for Vitiate. Vader was the apprentice of the most powerful telepaths in history and constantly tried to hide his thought and emotions from him, so comparing Vader to an average force user with basic shields, is silly, especially since Mara, a mere Emperor's hand, has stronger mental defenses than basic shields.

Also, what special defense did Revan use? He said he shielded his mind from Vitiate.


I.... don't care that he was Sidious' apprentice and tried to hide things. Exal Kressh was Vitiate's apprentice and tried to hide stuff from him, so can she resist Sidious' telepathy too? Unless Vader has feats of actually resisting Sidious' mind, that doesn't matter.

It doesn't mean that he was using a common mental shield just because the word shield was used. Darth Revan was clearly familiar with basic telepathy, yet in the novel Revan only states that now he knows Vitiate's technqiues and how to defend against them.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is nothing to suggest that Vitiate can instantly dominate Vader's mind, so yes, Vader could use a TK attack faster than Vitiate could penetrate his mental defense.

As for Vitiate's domination of Revan and Malak, they were already falling to the dark side, and were mentally vulnerable, plus Vitiate prepared for them. Vader isn't mentally unstable like he was when he was falling to the dark side. He's already accepted his dark side persona and is now a master of it.

Vader has never dominated the mind of someone as powerful as Vader. Even the writer who created Vitiate doesn't even think his TP is that powerful. I'll take his opinion over yours. Unless you could provide some instances that didn't require prep or Vitiate having to render his opponents unconscious first.


And I never stated that Vitiate would instantly dominate his mind, just that Vader couldn't be capable of striking against Vitiate while battling him mentally and feeling the effects of touching Vitiate's mind, which have been established as being very hazardous through Scourge's experience and by the fact that merely touching his mind has turned beings such as Servant Two permanently insane.

Drew stated that his opinion was uninformed and unofficial in the same breath, so you're welcome to his opinions if you want but don't expect me to treat them seriously. Vader has never demonstrated anything to suggest that he can resist Vitiate mentally, while Vitiate is one of if not the most telepathically dominating beings to ever live.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is a superior TK user to Vitiate himself and his feats are better. Vitiate's best TK feats only rival Vader's while he's on a nexus. So yes, based on demonstrated feats, Vader is far superior to Revan. Not to mention Vader would be just as amped as Vitiate on a nexus, which Revan was not.

It's funny how you TOR fans get all riled up when someone suggests Ventress has comparable TK to Revan, but expect the PT fans to accept unsupported claims that Revan's TK rivals Vader's. No, just no.


I didn't say that Revan rivals Vader in TK (though he does imo but I don't want to debate that), only that Vader is not so far above him that he can beat up Vitiate when Revan could hardly affect an IG borrowing a fraction of Vitiate's power. I don't care if you think Vader has better offensive TK than Vitiate does, but from that showing Vitiate has the defenses to tank anything Vader throws at him.

Also that claim is hardly unsupported. Others and myself have discussed it at length. You already know all the support for it. erm


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 11:11 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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quote:
The Sexy Bae
Darth Revan was clearly familiar with basic telepathy, yet in the novel Revan only states that now he knows Vitiate's technqiues and how to defend against them.

quote:
The Dumbass
As for Vitiate's domination of Revan and Malak, they were already falling to the dark side, and were mentally vulnerable, plus Vitiate prepared for them.

Both of you are underestimating The Revanchist/Darth Revan. His mental resistance was actually much superior to Darth Traya, yet was still dominated by the Sith Emperor.
----- ----- -----
Kreia was dominated and corrupted by the powers of Malachor V, unable to shield herself from the horrors:

"It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side—it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."
―Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
---- ---- ----
Meanwhile, Revan was not consumed by Malachor V, and even able to establish a Sith Academy there without being dominated.

"The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface:Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side."
―Chronicles of the Old Republic

"Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others, of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side."
―Kreia (Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 11:34 PM
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Nephthys
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I do agree that Revan being "vulnerable" and mentally weak is an over-exaggerated point.


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 11:36 PM
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Jaggarath
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Just consider it this way: Vitiate's corruption powers are more powerful then Malachor V itself. (please log in to view the image)


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 11:38 PM
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Nephthys
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I don't think that even needed to be established. Vitiate's corruption powers are so potent they could turn Gandi Republican and me straight.


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Old Post Aug 8th, 2014 11:42 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote:

Really? All I can recall is him reading a half-baked Luke's thoughts and mind tricking some imperial officer to walk out of an airlock. Hardly considerable.


He's probed Luke's mind without his consent from a vast distance on more than one occasion, and Luke himself is a high level telepath.

IIRC he also drove a guy insane after ripping information from his mind at one point. Don't hold me to that one, though.

quote:
Whether with lightsaber or hands, the same basic technique is used to contain the lightning, it just changes how you diffuse it, into your palm or into the blade.


That is completely unsupported, and speculation to begin with. The lightsaber absorbs the stream, it's not a force power.


quote:
ah, but I still feel it's important to note in regards to how "easy" it is to block his lightning.


And I agree. But we're talking about Darth Vader, a guy who has been building himself to defend himself against lightning specifically for years.

quote:
Nope, another bolt.


gtk

quote:
But he obviously can. erm


Can do what? How often do you see sorcery applied in combat? His illusions and TP are probably the bulk of it.

Old Post Aug 9th, 2014 01:00 AM
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Dominis
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I reply tomorrow, Neph.

Also, what did you do to Ant? I remember her being the faithful servant girl to the people who trolled and mocked her. You broke her free and gave her a will of her own?


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Old Post Aug 9th, 2014 01:17 AM
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psmith81992
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The idea that Vader somehow compares to Vitiate in the force is laughable and consistent with PT fanboyism.


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When the man comes around.

Old Post Aug 9th, 2014 02:05 AM
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Dominis
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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Physically nowhere.....


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
The idea that Vader somehow compares to Vitiate in the force is laughable and consistent with PT fanboyism.



Yeah, but this is coming from you, so no one cares.


@Neph, I might reply tonight since I won't be going to sleep early.


__________________
"The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis

Old Post Aug 9th, 2014 03:28 AM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but this is coming from you, so no one cares.

Old Post Aug 9th, 2014 03:36 AM
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FreshestSlice
Eternal Commander

Registered: May 2014
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
The idea that Vader somehow compares to Vitiate in the force is laughable and consistent with PT fanboyism.

Vitiate will eventually hug Vader's saber anyway.

Old Post Aug 9th, 2014 05:44 AM
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