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Could Smaug have tipped the War of the Ring in Saurons favor?
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KidRock
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Could Smaug have tipped the War of the Ring in Saurons favor?

If Sauron recruited Smaug and somehow convinced him to fight at Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith (before the army of the dead arrived), do you think he would have tipped these battles in Sauron's favor?


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Old Post Sep 7th, 2014 05:59 AM
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Omega Vision
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Probably. That's why Gandalf encouraged Thorin and Co to reclaim the Lonely Mountain--he knew that the war would be hopeless if Sauron could have gotten such a powerful tool.

Same reason (in my view) why he stayed and fought the Balrog of Morgoth in Moria. It isn't that the Fellowship couldn't have escaped the Balrog if he hadn't held it off, it was that once it had awoken he knew he had to kill it, lest Sauron recruit it into his army.

However, in the end it wasn't force of arms that defeated Sauron but something he'd never seen coming: that a pair of little Hobbits could bring the ring to Mount Doom and destroy it. If that hadn't happened, Sauron would have won anyway.


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Old Post Oct 8th, 2014 07:49 PM
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NemeBro
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Smaug was killed by a single magic arrow to the chest by a man whose backstory was introduced in the same paragraph he killed Smaug in.

So I mean, theoretically, despite Smaug's enormous power, any good archer (The elves have a lot of those from what I hear) with a fruity magic arrow can make Smaug go out like a pussy.


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Old Post Oct 8th, 2014 08:10 PM
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Omega Vision
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Legolas probably would have Barded him.

Though, in both the cartoon and the live action movie the black arrow is shown to be much longer and sturdier than a normal arrow, which might suggest that it's really just a matter of piercing deep enough rather than anything magical.


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“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
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echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Oct 8th, 2014 08:15 PM
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NemeBro
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Sure, but in the book such context was never given. In the movie it's more like a ballista bolt, which makes a bit more sense.

In the novel?

It's a dinky magic arrow.


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Old Post Oct 8th, 2014 08:34 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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I'm not sure if the book goes along with the movie in that there weren't many of these arrows left... The movie mentions this, does the book?

Old Post Oct 14th, 2014 05:04 PM
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God
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I think he couldn't. Smaug don't look that powerful to me.

Old Post Oct 14th, 2014 06:38 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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You mean besides expelling the most powerful dwarf kingdom on middle earth with relative ease?

Old Post Oct 14th, 2014 06:46 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean besides expelling the most powerful dwarf kingdom on middle earth with relative ease?

Well that is God your speaking too...


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Kadan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Smaug was killed by a single magic arrow to the chest by a man whose backstory was introduced in the same paragraph he killed Smaug in.

So I mean, theoretically, despite Smaug's enormous power, any good archer (The elves have a lot of those from what I hear) with a fruity magic arrow can make Smaug go out like a pussy.

no
It seems you misunderstood the point of the book.
Smaug's scales were impervious to nearly all weapons, but his underbelly was soft, so to compensate for it, Smaug slept upon the treasures of Erebor, which allowed bits off gold and jewels to embed themselves in his underbelly, this diamond wastcoat was intended to cover his only weak spot, however Bilbo discovered a bare patch on the left side of Smaug's underbelly. Bard was told about that spot by the thrush, which was the only reason that his arrow took Smaug down, besides you know, being a magic arrow.

'Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hallow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!'
From the Hobbit Page 274.
Chapter 12 Inside Information.

"Wait! Wait!" it (The Thrush) said to him. "The moon is rising. Look for the hallow of the left breast as he flies and turns above you!" And while Bard paused in wonder it told him of the tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard.
Then Bard drew his bow-string to his ear. The dragon was circling back, flying low, and as he came the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his great wings.
The Hobbit Page 300. Chapter 14 Fire and Water
"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from old. If ever you came from the forges of the true King under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"
The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hollow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water

The Lake roared in. A vast stream leapt up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water

Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 03:17 AM
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Kadan
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oops, accidentally spelt some things incorrectly. embarrasment


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 08:17 AM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kadan
no
It seems you misunderstood the point of the book.
Smaug's scales were impervious to nearly all weapons, but his underbelly was soft, so to compensate for it, Smaug slept upon the treasures of Erebor, which allowed bits off gold and jewels to embed themselves in his underbelly, this diamond wastcoat was intended to cover his only weak spot, however Bilbo discovered a bare patch on the left side of Smaug's underbelly. Bard was told about that spot by the thrush, which was the only reason that his arrow took Smaug down, besides you know, being a magic arrow.

'Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hallow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!'
From the Hobbit Page 274.
Chapter 12 Inside Information.

"Wait! Wait!" it (The Thrush) said to him. "The moon is rising. Look for the hallow of the left breast as he flies and turns above you!" And while Bard paused in wonder it told him of the tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard.
Then Bard drew his bow-string to his ear. The dragon was circling back, flying low, and as he came the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his great wings.
The Hobbit Page 300. Chapter 14 Fire and Water
"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from old. If ever you came from the forges of the true King under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"
The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hollow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water

The Lake roared in. A vast stream leapt up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water
None of that contradicted a single thing I said.

Smaug went out like a pussy. thumb up

Any good elven archer with a magic arrow could replicate the feat.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 09:37 AM
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Kadan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
None of that contradicted a single thing I said.

Smaug went out like a pussy. thumb up

Any good elven archer with a magic arrow could replicate the feat.

confused
And how does a simple elven archer know his weak spot? laughing out loud
It's not like a elf will get the chance to stare at Smaug's underbelly for more then a second when he's flying in the air, or blasting fire at them.
And Bard's arrow was special, alluded to being forged by the dwarves, or by something else entirely.
It never broke, at all.
Elven arrows do brake bro
So do explain bro.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 05:40 PM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kadan
[B]confused
And how does a simple elven archer know his weak spot? laughing out loud


Probably the same way Bard and Frodo did. By looking at it. It was hard to miss.

quote:
It's not like a elf will get the chance to stare at Smaug's underbelly for more then a second when he's flying in the air, or blasting fire at them.


Like Bard didn't? Oh wait, he shot him out of the air like a *****.

Sure, some elves may die. But it only takes one to hit him. thumb up

quote:
And Bard's arrow was special, alluded to being forged by the dwarves, or by something else entirely.
It never broke, at all.
Elven arrows do brake bro
So do explain bro.


So just like Beleg's arrow, Dailir?

The elves can easily replicate all that makes Bard's fruity little arrow worth a shit, and there are elves among them with the skill to shoot Smaug down. Without a doubt.

Smaug is ultimately disappointing for his supposed power. Compare him to Durin's Bane.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 06:46 PM
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ares834
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I did. One managed to conquer a kingdom of dwarves in a matter of hours. The other took around a year.

Smaug>Durin's Bane.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 10:30 PM
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NemeBro
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One was killed by an arrow used by a mortal man in a matter of minutes. Even then, Smaug had to horde jewels on his underbelly to ward off such attacks, because he had a huge vulnerability.

The other was unassailable to all but Gandalf, the strongest of the Fellowship, and it took him days to do so. He also died during the combat. Durin's Bane also isn't indicated to have been proactive in his destruction of Moria (or in anything really) like Smaug was in his attack on Erebor.

One is killed by nobody with a sissy arrow, the other by an Istari in a prolonged fight that took said Istari's life. It is clear who is more impressive. thumb up


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 10:59 PM
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ares834
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Yep. The who destroyed armies and razed cities in a matter of hours.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 11:01 PM
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NemeBro
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They both have done that. thumb up


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 11:17 PM
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ares834
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Only one did it in hours. smile

The other assassinated a king and it wasn't until sometime the following year that the dwarves fled.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2014 11:48 PM
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NemeBro
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as·sas·si·nate
əˈsasnˌāt/
verb
murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.

The one who was surprised was Durin's Bane, who woke up and proceeded to groggily kill Durin. Nain led armies to kill Durin's Bane the following year, and promptly was killed and had his army destroyed. thumb up

Now if you want to talk about a surprise attack, Smaug attacking Erebor out of nowhere was a surprise attack. thumb up


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Old Post Nov 9th, 2014 12:06 AM
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