Given that your original rationale for base Vegito being above the Z fighters stemmed from his anime fight with Buuhan, it certainly didn't seem like you were aware that it was non-canon filler initially. Glad you were aware, though.
Yeah, and I've also seen different translations--the original fan-dub, for example, stated Beerus could destroy a "galaxy" when he gets angry, not a "solar system". Point: fans can be wrong in their translations.
And again: I'm not necessarily saying Herms was wrong here... But it's still just a fan's translation in the end. Dunno if I'm quite willing to hold that in higher esteem than the English-dub, given that ALL of the other factoids mentioned in the English-dub are identical to those mentioned in the Jap-release. /shrug
That being said, I'm certainly not opposed to Beerus being a casual solar system buster--just speaking objectively, is all.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 12th, 2014 at 12:57 AM
Again, I think it depends on which statements you want to believe.
As I said earlier, I personally have no problem with Cell's statement about having enough power to destroy the SS, which is no bluff, nor hyperbole (also, DBZ characters are masters in sensing Ki, but none of them denied the claim, contrariwise they were actually scared); so, after having Cell at SS level of energy output, we have Beerus who can blow up the SS in an instant: the word "instant", combined with the fact that Beerus is actually thousands/millions of times more powerful than SPC, makes me quite sure about the God of destruction being easily multi SS at his best (which is a level, for now, we haven't even seen yet).
No problem.
That were early rumors which had nothing to do with Kanzenshuu's translation work.
Furthermore, the new released english or american dub has added a new line, according to which Beerus is a galaxy cluster destroyer.
Line never stated in the original work, so, as you can see, official dubs are unreliable compared to the original source.
You seem to like and know quite well DB, so trust me, Kanzenshuu and its variety of offer is the best you can get.
You won't be disappointed.
Never understood the Ki sensing argument, and how its to be assumed that the can tell the exact force needed to destroy a solar system without ever seeing it happen, unlike scaling to planetary threats they've already seen.
Not sure about thousands.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
It wasn't just a rumor--it was actually part of the film's subtitles. I posted the screen-cap here, in fact.
When was this stated in the English release? I've watched it a few times now, and it definitely wasn't said in the copy I have.
Heh, I've been a member there for quite a while, and have had multiple convos with Herms. He's always the first to admit that he is by no means the chief authority on Jap-to-English translations--I can post a statement from him to that effect if you'd like.
Again, not saying he's necessarily wrong(I don't speak Jap, so I don't know), but he's also not infallible like you're touting him as. /shrug
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 12th, 2014 at 03:56 PM
In DB, characters' Ki sensing has always basically been the word of author, especially with statements coming from Piccolo and Kuririn.
Regarding thousands, I assume you mean the gap between Beerus and SPC?
If so, I think there's no way we can escape from that, and this because of the Boo saga being the measurement stick for BoG.
During Boo saga, BP grow exponentially, and something that was the top tier in the Cell saga (Ssj2) becomes the absolute fodder during Boo's time.
Now let's use the official Ssj multipliers (there would be many things to say about them, but that's not the moment nor the place) and follow the Boo saga power chain (with few approximations of course):
- SPC: 1
- Ssj2 Goku (Boo saga): 1 [actually, he is slightly stonger than SPC, but that's one of the approximations I was talking about)
- Ssj3 Goku: 4
- Base Gotenks post: 4
- Ssj Gotenks post: 200
- Ssj2 Gotenks: 400
- Ssj3 Gotenks: 1600
- Super Boo: 1600
- Bootenks: 3200
Beerus is way above even Bootenks: the gap between him and SPC is in the thousands, at minimum.
I wasn't sure which dub was (english or american), but now I've done my researches: it's the Funimation dub.
At min 3:20 there's this line from King Kai: "Beerus the destroyer is the strongest destructive force in the whole universe, it's in his name. He's at a level you didn't even know existed. He's so moody he'll wipe out a cluster of galaxies if someone looks at him funny."
As you know, this line doesn't exist in the orginal source.
Yep, that's in the FUNimation dub(I just checked.) But just for a reference, King Kai states this at about 6:23.
As for where Beerus stands in relation to SPC, I think I agree with you for the most part.
ie. Beerus>>SSJG Goku>>>>SSJ Vegito>>>>>>>Buuhan>>>Buutenks~/>Mystic Gohan>>>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku(full power)>Kid Buu>Fat Buu>SSJ2 Majin Vegeta~SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan(Cell-era)~SPC.
All of that can be supported with canon material.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 12th, 2014 at 05:49 PM
But that has only been accurately said by people who have measured someone on that level, the level being at the PL 1mil area.
I can't agree with the numbers. Well just one really, concerning Gotenks. When he challenged Fat Buu in base he was completely wrecked. And seeing as Goku, who judged their power beforehand and would roughly know how powerful they'd get post fusion, assumed that their SS1 state would have what it takes to defeat Fat Buu. Knowing this and that S3 Goku was on the level of this Buu, with the possibility of killing him by going all out, we can take away that S1Gotenks is stronger than S3Goku, but not to any large extent. Even Post-ROSAT I'd wager that the difference between S1Gotenks and S3Goku is that of S2Goku and SPC.
That, and I saw a DaiKenz page saying they were equal. Can't find the bloody thing but I know its around there somewhere.
This would make Gotenks and Buu just over 30 times SPC's BP.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Last edited by BloodRain on Oct 12th, 2014 at 06:56 PM
I can see your point here, but DB works like that and AT speaks throughout his characters.
Regarding Boo saga gaps: Goku initially said that a Ssj Gotenks would have taken down Fat Boo, so we have
Ssj Gotenks (expected) > Fat Boo
He also said that the kids wouldn't have need a training session in the RoSaT in order to take down Fatty, and told to Boo himself that someone stronger than his Ssj3 form would have shown up, fighting him (actually, Goku says to Piccolo he told Fat Boo this).
Ssj Gotenks (expected) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo
Then Goku returns to heaven, while the kids performs fusion and Gotenks is born; the brat is overconfident, he thinks he can beat Fat Boo in base form, and despite Piccolo telling him he can't win, he faces Boo and gets his ass kicked.
But this isn't a problem, since Goku never said base Gotenks could have won.
Then the kids performs fusion as a Ssj, and this time Ssj Gotenks has the power to win, with nobody questioning it (actually, Piccolo wants to know about his speed, thus Gotenks circles the Earth multiple times).
Anyway, they don't fight Boo (obvious AT's choice, otherwise the saga would have ended there), and Boo becomes Super Boo.
Super Boo emits a burst of his power, and Piccolo wets himself, saying that Gotenks stands no chance: RoSaT is needed ASAP.
Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo
The kids train, and then they face Super Boo in the RoSaT, as Gotenks, in base form, and that's here the whole main point: indeed, Piccolo doesn't know that, now, Gotenks can transform in Ssj after having performed the fusion, but still, he thinks that base Gotenks post can stand a chance against Super Boo.
So:
Base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo
Then the fights starts, and Boo gets more and more serious as they fight, and proves himself to be even stronger than Ssj Gotenks (post).
Finally, he reaches his maximum power when he yells, breaking apart, with his enormous BP, the dimensional wall between the RoSaT and the Earth:
Super Boo (100%) > Super Boo (RoSaT) > Ssj Goteks (post) > Base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo
Then Gotenks turns Ssj3 (and this shocks Goku, lol) and begins to kick Boo's ass:
Ssj3 Gotenks > Super Boo (100%) > Super Boo (RoSaT) > Ssj Goteks (post) > Base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (initial) > Ssj Gotenks (pre) > Ssj3 Goku > Fat Boo
And so on, up to Vegetto.
The gap is big, there's no way to escape: just think that Goku wet himself at the thought of fighting Super Boo, and told Vegeta that Gogeta would have been their only hope (at this point it could even be started a discussion about Gogeta being way inferior to Vegetto in power, but that's not the case).
Yes, nothing big, but enough to have Boo clearly outclassed (something along with 1.2 or 1.25 gap, seen that in DBZ a gap of around 1.33 is enough in order to literally blow your opponent up).
Agreed.
In fact PC had an edge over Goku and could have finished him off, if he wanted (like Gotenks was going to do before defusing).
Still, we don't see Super Boo getting mad or what (like when he sensed Ultimate Gohan), because he knew he could have got his shot as well, not being totally outclassed (and also knew about the time limit of fusion).
Gotenks also used those wacky attacks he invented against Buu for the most part, which is primarily how he gained the advantage, imo. That is also, in part, how Buutenks gained the advantage over Mystic Gohan: by using wacky attacks(duped from Gotenks, obviously) that Gohan wasn't prepared for.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 12th, 2014 at 10:31 PM
Yes, Piccolo is surprised at their growth, believing he might have a chance.. until realizing that his attempts we're futile and then reconsidered on the very next page. Believing he in fact does not have a chance. So sure, he got stronger, but Piccolo's initial thought meant nothing seeing as it was so easily shattered.
Now, what do we have to think that Base > Fat Buu when all we know as an undeniable fact is that Fat Buu and Base Gotenks are both weaker than Super Buu? Remember its not even a challenge at this point, as Super Buu is tanking attacks like a breeze. Not even just base, S1 too. Buu dominated S1 so much that he was almost receiving the same damage that his base took against Fat Buu. The only way Buu took damage was from a stupid random attack, a surprise attack (even fro DB standards) and one playing on Buu's stupidity to walk into a trap.
Next is that S3 Gotenks didn't actually kick his ass. It starts off with Buu taking the edge, than falling to a tricky technique. After a few blasts its shown that he's barely hurt, and in Piccolo's opinion thinks Buu believes Gotenks is near his strength. The fight seems near equal until Gotenks takes advantage of his mouth blast and lays on a continuous attack. Gotenks was stronger, but not to a level where Buu couldn't fight back. So to scale;
S3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > S1 Gotenks > Base Gotenks.
Fat's placement? No reason to assume its below Base if we take off Piccolo's misjudgment.
Base Gotenks needed to amp 50x in order to go from being completely dominated to beating Fat
S1 Gotenks needed to amp by 8x in order to go from being stomped to beating Super. Now here's how I see it;
Even with an out of verse thinking, it makes more sense that Super is closer to over 8x Fat's strength then him being 400x that strength. I mean didn't you see Goku's face when Gotenks came out as S3? Thats because in-verse being 8 times stronger is impossibly amazing and impressive, especially when even 2x can make someone go from being stomped to wearing the boots. If Super became 400x stronger, in a verse where Goku becoming 4x stronger was the most shocking thing to the Z fighters, they would have given up.
Just look at how Vegeta gave up all hope against 1% Frieza who's BP would probably be 4x his own after that last zenkai. Only 4 times stronger. It wouldn't make any sense that Buu could be that far ahead.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
And again: that was 'just' a 12.6x power differential.
Heck, SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell is another great example. Gohan casually trounced Cell as though he were a weak feeb, even though he was 'only' about 2x more powerful.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 13th, 2014 at 01:37 AM
He clearly states Gohan was stronger than him, not Gotenks. He says he needed to be the strongest but didn't seem to feel that way about Gotenks.
Then he says he didn't want to absorb them just to lose the power shortly afterwardsans he . This could mean he drew the fight out with them and he wasn't trying to win ie he was holding back.
I agree with you about those huge gaps being unnecessary, but the manga explicitly states that power chain, and there's nothing we can do to change that.
Many people tried to shrink the Ssj multipliers (as I told you before, there would much to say about them), by giving, for example, way smaller Ssj boosts to fusion characters like Gotenks.
Anyway, I don't see the issue honestly: on Namek Freeza went from 530'000 to 120'000'000 (that's a 226x boost but nobody complained about that).
The truth is that Goku is fodder in Boo saga, and nowhere near the level of its top tiers.
That's another PoV that's quite diffused among fans.
Personally, I don't have anything against it, even if I actually believe in Ssj3 Gotenks > Super Boo (even if by a small gap).
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