Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Since one or two particularly intractable posters intermittently reintroduce this topic as though there's more to discuss, this is a quick read for one's edification.
The "conflict" technically begins at 1:45 when Sidious attacks the brothers with the Force. Both Zabraks are pinned to the throne room windows and visibly squirm and struggle to release themselves, releasing stress fractures along the glass. Sidious, on the other hand, is smiling and snickering, visibly effortless. He releases them of his own accord and allows them to arm themselves. At 2:09, the brothers cage Sidious each with a two-armed blade lock. He holds them at bay with one hand each, pushing both their blades back, still smiling and cackling.
No stress, fear, concern, anxiety, or effort visibly demonstrated to convey that he's having a hard time or requiring full demand of his abilities, unlike his duels with Yoda and Mace
At 2:20, Savage knocks Sidious off a balcony
At 2:21, Sidious Force grips both brothers and drags them with him
At 2:30, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 2:32, Sidious elbows Savage in the face
At 2:42, Sidious back-kicks Savage off the ramp
At 2:45, Sidious Force slams Maul unconscious
At 2:55, Sidious deactivates his lightsabers and casually dances around two of Savage's strikes
At 2:58, Sidious kicks Savage in the chest
At 3:06, Sidious roundhouse kicks Savage in the face, stunning him
At 3:08, Sidious impales Savage with both blades from behind
At 3:13, Sidious Force pushes Savage off a balcony
At 4:07, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 4:14, Maul kicks Sidious in the chest
At 4:18, Sidious and Maul engage in blade lock with Maul beginning from a position of leverage. Sidious overpowers him and disarms him at 4:22
At 4:25, Sidious Force grips Maul and throws him on the ground
At 4:29, Sidious throws Maul into a wall
At 4:31, Sidious slams Maul on the ground again
At 4:41, Sidious inundates Maul with Force lightning and does so again at 4:55
In this play-by-play, the times that each brother lands a hit of any sort blow against Sidious via physical dominance or the Force is encoded in red. Everything else in standard black is the reverse for Sidious. As you can see, it's hilariously lopsided. This isn't a contest of peers.
So if the patently obvious isn't enough, what else is there?
I even posted actual scans rather than putting the burden on any of you heretics to click links. Here it is.
So, to recap: the entire point of the duel was a love letter to Sidious's epic mastery and why he's the biggest BAMF around. Filoni describes it as an ass kicking, confirms that he's enjoying himself the entire time, and that his opponents can't even "compete" with him. He even implies that lightsabers were superfluous by "deciding" to deactivate them and "maul Maul."
That's how lopsided this fight is. Sidious is beyond them by miles and miles and miles. It's all there on-screen and Filoni went to exhausting lengths to repeatedly confirm one of the most ridiculously straightforward battles in Star Wars history.
Any moronic pursuit of this further as though the matter is open to debate can simply be directed to this thread.
tl;dr: Sheev's a god, that's all. This debate is officially closed by decree of Tempest.
Arhael, Dave confirmed these clowns can't even compete with Sidious. Dave confirms he's enjoying himself the whole time. We see him laughing and smiling and prolonging the duel when he could have killed them outright.
So if these guys can't compete with him, it stands to reason they'd have been massacred as utterly as the B-Team if he weren't holding back.
I know you have an agenda where everyone's soooo much closer in prowess, but that's not how it is. These guys are ants and Sidious is a boot. Deal with it.
Usually "compete" suggests having a legitimate chance of winning. Not simply putting up a fight before going down.
I don't get the need to make every combatant equal to The B-Team next to Sidious. Not being capable of competing =/= B-Team quick Blitz.
If you want to take everything Filoni says then I can point out him saying:
1. It was a Legitimate fight.
2. Opress performed better than the Jedi Council. (Note- He specifically credits Opress for doing better and doesn't credit Sidious for trying less).
3. Lucas's orders were "I want Maul and Sidious to fight," and it was for me to figure out how to bring that about. (Note- He didn't say "Lucas's orders were "I want Sidious to "pretend" to fight Maul).
4. We wanted to show an "Epic" Lightsaber battle (Again I don't think "pretending" to have a lightsaber battle really equates into being an "epic" one, but maybe that's just me).
If you want to talk about him "enjoying" the fight, I can point out the official site saying the same about his fight with Yoda.
I can also point to Filoni saying "Yoda barely escaped Sidious" therefore Opress had to die. Thereby again hinting that if even Yoda has to run from Sidious then there's no way Opress and Maul can escape him - hence them not being able to compete. So again not being capable of surviving a fight with Sidious doesn't mean they equal a B-Team Level blitz.
Then of course there's SOD where Maul engages Windu and Secura together. If Maul can fight Mace, and Mace can not only fight, but defeat Sidious, then how can it add up if Maul can't even "fight" Sidious. After all him "fighting" Sidious was Lucas's orders in the first place.
So given everything we know why can't we just all agree on the following:
1. It was a fight.
2. The Bros were out of their depth and got their asses handed to them.
3. Opress was the weakest of the trio and couldn't be expected to last longer than Fisto in a one on one where Sidious goes straight for the kill (even though Opress likely would defeat Fisto in a one on one fight with him).
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 15th, 2014 at 04:27 PM
A false dichotomy. If you put up a fight before going down, you're a challenge: you have a legitimate chance of winning even if it isn't 50/50. That you didn't win doesn't mean you couldn't have.
These guys can't compete with Sidious per Filoni.
Not every combatant is equal to the B-Team. Most are far beneath, since the B-team actually represents some of the best Jedi ever. But they can't compete with Sidious either per Word of God and so are therefore a fairly accurate measuring stick.
Kinda overwhelmed by all of the evidence at my disposal. You probably don't want to get in a dick measuring contest on this one.
He doesn't credit anything for Opress lasting longer than the Jedi, he just says that he does. We can infer from the rest of the evidence what reason that is: Sidious was toying with him.
In addition to a dick measuring contest, I'm literally the last person here with whom you want to argue semantics. It wasn't a "pretend" fight: the weapons were real, the intent to kill was real (on one side, anyway), and the violence was real.
Indeed it was an epic lightsaber battle... because Sidious was courting the fight and allowed it to happen. If he wanted a quick fight, it would have ended quickly.
...And we do see Sidious enjoy the fight with Yoda (at certain points).
Except... Yoda can compete with Sidious per Lucas... the brothers can't per Filoni... which makes this a worthless analogy and Yoda a poor measuring stick for the brothers.
We don't know how long Maul's tussle with Windu and Secura lasted nor do we know to what extent Windu was unleashing himself.
...No one said it wasn't.
Everyone and their mother agrees Sheev is lightyears ahead of these clowns, yes.
Yeah, I get it, this is a very convoluted way to wank Obi-Wan and by extension Dooku. Doesn't matter. The whole point of this fight was to wank Sheev, DP. Not Obi-Wan. Not Dooku. Sheev >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all these fools. Time to deal with it and move on. My guy can give your guys wedgies with impunity.
Actually Sidious deactivates his sabers during the two on one in order to do the back flip kick on Savage, which, to me, again, shows that he was taking them seriously even when outnumbered, unless he absolutely had to perform that fancy stunt on Savage.
DP, if Windu could do absolutely nothing to stop Sidious from one shotting 2 notable lightsaber masters and another seconds later, what makes you think Maul could prevent Sidious from blitzing Savage had he wanted to? To think that, would suggest that you believe Maul to be superior to Windu, or Savage to be superior to the 3 council members. Savage is not noted for his saber skills enough to be considered a saber master, whereas the B-team are. Savage's advantage over most opponents comes from his brute strength, which is irrelevant to someone like Sidious (unless they enter a saber lock with Sidious using one hand to push Savage back), so if the B-teams skill and speed couldn't prevent them from being blitzed, how do you assume Savage could?
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Last edited by Dominis on Oct 15th, 2014 at 05:03 PM
Maul only briefly engaged Windu in a duel, and I think the latter was fighting seriously, because there's no reason for him to hold back. Regardless, the fight is too short to give a judgement on it. Mace was amped against Sidious, and Maul isn't far below him as a duellist anyways.
That was actually one of the points in the fight he wasn't laughing or smiling. So I do think the flip kick was a serious hit, as was knocking Maul out right after.
I think Savage is superior to the B-Team. He may not be faster than Fisto, but if he's just as fast with tremendous more strength, he could be supremely better back up.
Filoni's exact words:
"You know getting taken out by Sidious is pretty good, ranks up there. He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council, I'll say that much for him..
So I don't see the argument or the issue when one of the first comments Filoni made on that fight was comparing Opress to the Jedi Council, and specifically giving him credit for putting up a better fight than them. He didn't give the credit for Opress performing better than Fisto and crewe to Sidious for not trying. He gave the credit for that to Opress for just putting up a better fight.
One on one is completely different. In that scenario I don't see Opress lasting longer than Fisto as even Maul has taken him out in seconds.
But we can't just selectively read Filoni's comments and putting our own interpretations on them. You have to take everything he says.
I might just start harassing Filoni on facebook/twitter/by mail e.t.c. until he gives an answer, otherwise this sh** will never stop.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 15th, 2014 at 08:52 PM
__________________ "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself."
- Darth Plagueis
"She may be small but she packs a punch and when shes in this mood...she goes for my danglers" - Oghren, Dragon Age
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
I love how nobody ever disputed Sidious>Maul and Savage...
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Oct 15th, 2014 03:36 PM
