Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Yeah. My point is that Tempest made a thread about how Sidious>Maul and Savage when there was never really any doubt.
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... didn't Obi-Wan cut Savage' ****ing hand off in a duel?
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
And yet people think its logical to assume that Sideous was blood-lusted and going full-on against him because...?
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
You and I watched a different fight. Sidious was smiling right before he deactivated his sabers and did that stunt. He lost his smile when he looked up after performing the stunt, and seen Maul flying at him while his sabers were still deactivated and before he could get back on his feet and resume combat stance.
To think he poses a more of a threat to Sidious in a duel than 3 saber masters is silly, especially given that the advantages Savage holds over most opponents, he doesn't hold over Sidious. In other words, what makes Savage dangerous to most in combat becomes irrelevant when facing someone who far exceeds him in those areas.
Explain. Physical strength doesn't prevent one from being blitzed.
Irrelevant. Filoni didn't coordinate Sidious's fight with the council members. He also depicted Sidious as having a far different demeanor than when he faced the council members.
He didn't give a reason at all, but he did depict Sidious as being far less aggressive, allowing his opponents to make their move first. That wasn't the case with the council members.
By your logic, Filoni didn't credit Savage's better performance as being a better back up either. The comment was referring to when Savage was taken out, which happened during his one on one with Sidious.
Obviously Savage alone is not more threatening than 3 saber masters with Windu being alongside them. Filoni doesn't even consider Savage as being as skilled as a saber master.
I really don't unless it pertains exclusively to the material he has authority over, otherwise he has no say on fights he had absolutely nothing to do with, unless the point of the fight was about Savage's alleged superiority over the council members, but it wasn't, which is evident in how Sidious went about the fight.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Kept rewinding and pausing but his face expression right before the back flip is hard to see. However he was cornered by the duo and avoiding a punch from Maul when doing the back flip kick.
Well he's probably at least as fast as Fisto (given his speed in fights against other Council Members and Ventress). And if you remember Fisto was the only one of the Council members who exchanged a few blows with Sidious. But Opress has much stronger hits, so yeah I think it could make the difference.
Ok, so you think Filoni isn't an authority on comparing the 2 fights. So that's why your choosing to ignore that particular comment of his. That's fine.
I personally think his working with Lucas for the past 8 years and directing this fight which was one Lucas specifically ordered, makes him a pretty damn good opinion on the comparison.
Yeah but he also depicted a fight. When there wasn't one at all against the Council Members (aside from Fisto for a very short period).
Because it was mostly a 2 on 1 fight before Savage went down. And obviously Savage can't last against Sidious in a 1 on 1.
I'm just making my own sense out of his comments just as you and Tempest have come to your own conclusions from his other comments.
Urm, depends. I'd say Dooku would be more of a threat to Sidious then say Kenobi, Luminara and Ventress combined. But that doesn't mean Dooku could take those 3 together in a fight.
Ok but those same characters exist in the material he has authority over. So if it's his intention to show the Brothers ultimately being outclassed but better than other Masters who fall to Sidious later, then he has the authority to depict that and explain it to viewers. Which is one of the first things he did after the release of the episode.
I really don't want this to get into a long drawn out debate over this again, because we've done it countless times. And we all agree the Brothers were outclassed by Sidious. The only difference is You, Tempest and others believe Maul and Opress may as well be Tiin/Fisto/Kolar against Sidious. Whilst Me, Arhael and others think the Maul bros are definitely above the B-Team and can last a whole lot longer than them (especially in Sabers). As long as was depicted in fact.
I see Sidious vs Maul more like Dooku vs Ventress than Sidious vs Fisto. It makes no sense any other way considering Windu did not speed blitz Maul. There was clearly a fight going on there. And we know Windu goes toe to toe with Sidious (ignoring the did he legitimately beat Sidious or not part).
Not even bothered. The louder you shout your opinions and speculations, the more they crumble in light of the fact that Windu even with help of Secura failed to quickly take down Maul.
If as you say Sidious could massacre them as utterly as the B-Team, Windu - the one who out dueled Sidious should have no problem with doing the same, especially when he has help.
So yeah, if I need to prove that Sidious was fighting to the best of his ability, then equally you need to prove that Windu wasn't when he faced Maul.
I might as well address your previous comment properly.
You don't know, if he was prolonging the duel. You don't know, if he could have killed them outright. Even if we go by your another assumption that he could kill them with TK at any point, that still doesn't prove he could do it with lightsaber. If someone can shoot you with a gun, doesn't mean he can beat you up in a fist fight as well.
We indeed see him laughing and smiling, that means nothing, he laughed and smiled during fight with Yoda as well. Ganner Rysode was laughing and smiling, when he took on thousands Vongs, so that's really indicates nothing.
And you don't have an agenda?
Last edited by Arhael on Oct 16th, 2014 at 09:00 PM
It's probably harder to see on youtube. I have it on DVR, and he was smiling when Opress leaped over him and before Maul threw the punch.
At least as fast as Fisto? No. Fisto is faster and more skilled. At best, Savage is as fast as him.
Nope, not when he had Sidious treating the fight completely opposite to how Sidious treated a fight in which he had no involvement in.
Again, not when his depiction of Sidious's demeanor conflicts with his comments (If he was suggesting that Savage is a superior duelist, that is), and was the exact opposite to how Lucas depicted Sidious's demeanor against the council members.
That's because Sidious allowed them to fight. Do I really need to point out how differently Sidious treated both fights?
The comment Filoni made seemed to be referring to Savage's one on one with Sidious, considering that's when he was taken out. Regardless, Filoni didn't credit Savage lasting as long as he did one on one against Sidious to Sidious toying with him. We just know that because of the fact that Sidious was clearly being portrayed as not taking the fight seriously. I mean, if you don't accept the obvious, then Savage could hold his own against Sidious better than he could against someone who is far below Sidious (Maul), which doesn't make too much sense, but that's the very logic you're using, all because Filoni didn't outright state that Sidious was toying around, although he did heavily imply it and made it noticeable throughout the entire fight.
No, you're only harping on one comment and trying to compare two different fights both of which Sidious treated far differently. If the fight was intended to depict a disparity between Savage and the council members, then Sidious would have went straight for the kill as he did against the council members. The purpose of the fight was to show Sidious's clear superiority over the brothers while enjoying himself, which is what was depicted and something Filoni outright stated.
I think Dooku might be able to pull it off with extreme difficulty.
Regardless if he couldn't, though, Dooku is also miles ahead of them individually. Savage, whom Filoni doesn't even consider to be skilled enough to be labeled a swords master, is not miles ahead of any of those council members individually (not in speed and raw skill, anyway). His advantage over them would come from his brute strength, which, for the most part, is irrelevant to Sidious, unless he throws all of his weight and strength in a saber lock on Sidious, who is using one arm to push him back. Other than that, Sidious showed absolutely nothing to indicate that he struggled against Savage's strength enough for it to matter, otherwise he wouldn't have been toying around and casually blocking blows with his back towards Savage and with a huge smile on his face.
Point is, if Sidious can one shot saber masters, then he could do the same against an opponent who is not a saber master. Physical strength wouldn't prevent that.
His only intention was to make an epic saber duel, with Sidious showing clear superiority over the brothers, and he did depict that, with Sidious enjoying himself. If his intention was to show Savage's superiority in a saber duel over the council members, then he would have depicted Sidious as treating the fight the same, and not showing Sidious as not taking them seriously and clearly toying with them. He definitely wouldn't have made the statement that Savage isn't as skilled as a saber master (which was a quote you provided), so how you assume Savage is a greater threat to Sidious in a saber duel than 3 saber masters is beyond me, especially when Savage's biggest advantages in a saber duel barley affected Sidious.
The thing is both you and Arhael lowball three jedi masters who are regarded as being some of the greatest swords masters of all time, and believe Savage poses a greater threat to Sidious in a saber duel despite his lack of skill to even be considered a saber master.
That's a vast difference, so I'm not seeing how you believe someone who isn't even a saber master could provide better support in a saber duel to someone below Dooku in sabers against Sidious than the support 3 saber masters could provide to someone who is a peer of Dooku in strict sabers.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Last edited by Dominis on Oct 16th, 2014 at 10:10 PM
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Wasn't is said somewhere that Dooku was struggling against the Ventress + Savage team? So I think while I would rule out the possibility, Ventress, Kenobi and Luminara would take him.
No I was trying to look at his expression right after Maul's punch- just before the backflip kick. It's at that time he was surrounded by the 2, and was avoiding a punch from Maul, when he floors Savage with that back kick, and next time we see him, he's definitely not smiling, and knocks Maul out with Tk.
You have proof of that from Official Canon? Might as well stick with Official Canon sources here seen as we are discussing Filoni's comments so since he doesn't consider EU Legends Canon, there's no point in mixing and matching, because they are not consistent with each other.
Thing is the demeanor Sidious had when fighting the B-Team is not his only demeanor when not messing around, as we clearly saw in his fight against Yoda.
Of course Yoda was a proper challenge and struggle so there were immensely more serious instances for Sidious in that fight where we visibly see Sidious's struggle, but it doesn't change his overall demeanor in that fight, showing he will laugh in fights even when he's clearly not messing around, as long as he's confident of the outcome.
Well no because Filoni never mentioned the 1 0n 1, or the 2 0n 1, before Savage went down. He just gave Savage credit for the fight he put up against Sidious before getting killed. There's no reason to think that just means their 1 on 1, when none of the Council members ever faced Sidious 1 on 1, and Savage was clearly already tired and wounded by the time his 1 on 1 came along.
But yes of course 1 on 1 Sidious can take Savage out faster than Maul did. Dooku also takes Savage out incredible quickly one on one (their training session). But just having Ventress help him clearly made a huge difference.
Well technically he didn't go "straight" for the kill with the Council Members. He only took out his Sabers after the Jedi ignited theirs. Same with Maul/Opress, and same with Yoda in fact.
The reason I harp on about that 1 comment is because Filoni has already answered the topic we go around and around in circles with. The fact that Opress (so clearly Maul as well), put up a better fight than the Jedi B-Team.
When he's answered such a specific question for us I don't see why we have to keep on going in circles over it.
He maybe. I'm just pointing out that the more powerful the opponent, the more of a threat they are, rather than 2 or 3 less powerful opponents.
Despite Opress's lack of Saber mastery he clearly eats Council Members for Breakfast, and has defeated some extremely skilled Saber duelists.
Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, (And Kenobi on occasion as well). Plus he's battered Ventress, and shown himself to be more of a threat to Count Dooku than Kenobi ever was.
And Filoni never said Opress wasn't as "Fast" as other Council Members. Given how he fought Ventress and Adi Gallia I think he's clearly pretty damn fast.
So not sure how putting him above Fisto or Tiin is lowballing them. It's because he's better than them individually that he puts up a better struggle alongside Maul than all 3 of the Council do alongside Windu. Although technically it was only Fisto who actually traded Saber blows with Sidious while Sidious was simultaneously trading blows with Windu).
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 17th, 2014 at 11:38 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Windu beat Sidious with not only a huge Vaapad amp far beyond any he had ever had before but also a massively circumstantial mind-set that in and of itself would have made him a much deadlier combatant.
Using the Sidious duel in any argument pertaining to Mace vs anyone not Sidious, is to take said duel hilariously out of context, whether it is for or against Windu.
Windu was fighting tiers above his normal lightsaber prowess the entire time due to external circumstances.
Windu be it against Depa, Maul, Asajj, Dooku, etc, etc... performs nowhere near the level that he did against the Dark Lord of the Sith.
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1. Against Depa Windu was refusing to use Vaapad and she was ampted as well. When did he fight Asajj, how long? Dooku went toe to toe against Yoda, why shouldn't he be able to do the same against Windu?
2. Prove Windu fought better/deadlier against Sidious, than when he fought Maul. Assumptions don't count.
3. Vaapad is non-canon, however, the fact that Windu is given level 9 combat prowess like Yoda and Sidious still is.
4. Even if we assume that Windu did not fight as good as against Sidious, it is well compensated by the fact that he had help from Secura.
Oct 15th, 2014 11:52 PM
