I was bringing up the Anti-Monitor because in DC anti-matter, only exceeded by entropy, can erase almost anyone and anything. Prime finishing off a weakened opponent that dwarfed multiple guardians and flying through anti-matter without any sign of injury is one of his greatest durability feats.
And I think the fight with Monarch is applicable because remember he lost the amp before he ripped open Monarch's armor and survived the energies released afterwards. He was no longer Superman Prime and had reverted to Superboy Prime, hence Monarch commenting on it, mocking him, and Prime screaming he wasn't a boy but a man.
Ripping open Monarch armor was a feat that 52 Captain Atoms, Christopher Kent (a being superior to Red Son Superman and Dark Knight Superman combined), multiple supermen, green lanterns, wonder women, and more failed to put a dent in during Countdown.
Losing his Guardian Amp and still ripping Monarch open I would rank as a feat above destroying a mindless one army, or bi-beast and company because I don't believe any of those characters including Umar could defeat Monarch in battle. I also hold destroying an armor which can contain Universe busting energies to be a massive strength feat.
If you are basing this on amount of appearances then WBH definitely will hold a durability edge in terms of not being affected by weaker characters. Prime has appeared more often and has the lowest showing between the characters, with the Teen Titans, but imo has more high end feats from escaping the Speed Force to Recon punching characters to earlier states in their continuity (which I think is more ridiculous than destroying someone).
In this fight I think Prime's speed of attacking Hulk will be a bigger factor than the speed of Hulk's healing factor. If Prime chooses to use his speed, which was capable of counteracting a blitz from multiple flashes in combat, I don't see any healing factor from the Hulk Naija Boy that is capable of surviving the onslaught long enough to win the fight. Too many punches, too fast, in too short a time interval to recover from. If Prime chooses to use his speed.
Multiple strength feats done by Prime with the end result being the shifting of an ENTIRE UNIVERSE's Axis. I don't know of any character below what KMC would designate being a skyfather that would accomplish such a feat so quickly, so easily, without remotely exhausting their power.
And I disagree Naija Boy that the most impressive part of World Breaker Hulk is the character component. To me, it is the affecting of the dark dimension which has Umar distressed that sells the total power of WBH and Betty's collision.
Dark Dimension Wrecked>>>>>>>>>>Mindless One Army>>>>>Fing Fang Foom, Bi Beast, Wendigo, etc....
If you can raze a dimension (I don't know the size of the Dark Dimension and I'm assuming its much larger than any galaxy) character destruction comes secondary because dimensional wrecking imo trumps obliterating a top tier character herald or otherwise. It's the reason many people find destroying a galaxy superior to killing say a Black Adam. It's the magnitude of the scale and the power required to destroy so much matter.
Prime's feat was multiple strength feats, but without a decrease in stamina or power, easily and quickly accomplished, resulting in a UNIVERSAL upheaval. I find it more impressive because he did it alone and without anyone else's power contributing.
An there is a comparative character component, I admit not directly on panel, but through approximation. Explicitly being multiple incidents of top tier characters like Superman and Hal Jordan vs Starbreaker, or J'onn, WW, and Superman moving the planet against the sorceress Gamemnae. So we kind of know what it takes to move planets against opposing forces for DC top tiers but this isn't the strongest stand of my argument since you have Superman solo doing things with blackholes and other things that would greatly exceed planet moving.
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 23rd, 2014 at 09:28 PM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Prime tanking Anti-Matter is indeed an impressive durability feat and I acknowledge that fact. However the strength component of the feat is certainly not on a comparable level to HOTM given that Anti-Monitor was considerably weakened.
Also, I think you are misrepresenting the Monarch feat. It was extremely impressive but mostly as a durablility feat in the sense that he didnt get killed by the resulting explosion. However it is not really a particularly notable strength feat. For one when you say that that, 52 captain atoms, Conner Kent, Multiple supermen etc were unable to put a dent in it, you convey the image that Monarch was merely there allowing them to hit him and happy tanking attacks via the durability of his armour. That is not at all the case as Monarch was actively fighting (and admittedly, trouncing) these characters. Hence the actual attacks that his armour straight up tanked are not at all sufficient for breaching the armour to be classified as a strength feat in excess of what hulk did in HOTM. Furthermore, the armour was specifically designed to be able to internally regulate and contain those quantum energies. That is certainly not merely a function of its durability. Internally containing big bang level energies is not a "big bang level" durability feat for the armour which is what you seem to be implying. It would thus be even more exceedingly faulty to think for instance that in breaching the armour Prime exerted greater force than Monarchs internal big bang level energies....which is the logical implication of your current reasoning process.
Prime superior amount of appearances means that he has more showings in general both low and high (but not necessarilly better). This is why in line with the forum rules I have been trying to focus on the general power level range in which he was portrayed at. It is subsequently fair to say that while Prime was very powerful and definitely above herald, he was still able to be harmed by herald level output. WBH on the other hand was entirely unharmed by forces exponentially above typical herald/top tier levels of output and was shown to no sell attacks from amped high herald level beings even while in a considerably weaker form (when he was holding back earlier in HOTM). It also works to WBH's advantage that we actually only ever see him portrayed in a non-holding back manner at the end of HOTM which serves by default as his consistent portrayal level in a non-holding back environment and also means he is unencumbered by either low or high outliers.
Things like recton punches and escpaing the speed force are unquatifiable esoteric feats that while impressive on the surface do not provide good bases for comparisons.
An area in which I do agree with you however is that Prime can certainly win if he uses his speed effectively. On the other hand, I believe that looking at the totality of Primes fights suggests that in character, he wont be buzzing around at unhittable speeds during the fight and as a result will likely engage in physical conflict in which he will be very hittable.
Yes it is impressive that Prime accompplished multiple strength feats in quick succession over an unspecified but relatively short period of time, but for the sake of the strength comparison in this scenario, we must consider the individual feat and compare it to another individual feat, otherwise it is a non-starter.
The reason I place more emphasis on the character component however is because generally speaking I find that feats involving direct chracter comparisons are more pertinent to combat situations. We see characters in comics who survive blackholes but get koed by other beings who can exert nowhere near the force of blackholes. Hence often times these collateral damage feats are not indicative of how characters match up in combat situations. Comics are rife with such examples of space cheese feats and thats why I and most others I think, find feats that have direct character comparisons more impressive. Now of course this principle does not apply all the time and each situation must be looked at on a case by case basis.
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Last edited by Naija boy on Oct 24th, 2014 at 12:39 AM
Naija, SBP threw anti monitor out of the solar system. That's a strength feat right out of the pre crisis era.
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I just want to mention a couple of things.
1. PIS feats shouldn't be used.
2. A lower character doing well against a higher character doesn't necessarily mean the higher character is being written down to the lower character. It could mean the lower character is being written up to the higher character.
In other words, spider-man could have been operating much closer to herald level when beating on firelord, rather than firelord operating closer to spider-man's level.
With that said, Thanos has ALWAYS been affected physically by high heralds. He never once no sold a high herald in a physical attack. So going by that, then WBH should one shot kill Thanos in a single physical hit. But many don't believe this.
IMO, prime still has his reflexes on. They WILL NOT be turned off for the sake of the plot. So it's irrelevant whether he will use speed all the time or not. He's not going to purposely continue to get hit when he sees the attacks coming in super slow motion. Also, people are forgetting that prime has cheap ways to win, bfr, etc. This is a decent fight where Prime wins.
The only thing I give hulk here is that he would be stronger and more durable (if using average-high prime). But not in the vicinity where he one shots prime or prime fails to affect him.
In my estimation there wasn't another character there that could fly through the anti-monitor and dismiss him in such a state, otherwise I think the Guardians would've finished the job and fragged him.
I don't think I'm misrepresenting the fight. Monarch literally stood his ground and ignored multiple Supermen and Wonder Women attacking him without moving.
As I showed above he did tank Multiple herald characters attack like he was standing in the middle of a breeze. This is comics, Prime destroying the armor doesn't necessarily mean he possess big bang power through his fingertips other than his strength is sufficient to destroy the external durability of Monarch's armor which all the above mentioned characters (multiple Heralds and Trans Tier Being imo with Christopher Kent) failed to do and contained or regulated his immense power.
And still possessing the strength to tear him open when multiple herald beings and more failed to affect the armor earlier is a massive strength feat. You're stance is that because Hulk in his world breaker state can ignore the attacks of multiple herald level characters it shows superior durability to Prime who is affected by herald level force, bleeding, wheeling, etc...
I agree.
But for your position to be consistent you have to acknowledge the same for Monarch who is never bothered by multiple herald level force applied to him.
This is important Naija Boy because Prime RIPPED him OPEN. The same durability that ignores multiple superman and wonder woman attacking him simultaneously is torn open by Prime. My stance that Prime will literally rip World Breaker apart is based on what he did against Monarch who I feel is not only more powerful than Hulk but is also more durable but that is debatable like all things in comparative cross company vs fights.
Now your opposite stance is that Prime will be affected WORSE by World Breaker Hulk's strength than the herald level force that has already affected Prime (he's no sold some like Black Adam but has bled from Krypto biting him, Conner's punches, etc...) and that's a reasonable conclusion since Prime is inconsistent.
The disagreement is that I say Prime with his strength, speed, and wonky durability (against Anti-Matter, Monarch, etc...) will hold up long enough to defeat the WBH Hulk and his healing factor before he is punched out or thunderclap defeated, etc...
I'm assuming when this fight was made the op was considering Prime at his best and not in a holding back manner as when he fought the Teen Titans and admitted as such. I addressed the major point of your argument being WBH's specific durability against herald level force with Monarch above who was still ripped open by a pissed off petulant Prime.
Esoteric feats that no one else in DC was doing and also conveys the overall power of Prime who raked up quite a list of ridiculous over the top feats like punching through the Phantom Zone despite supposedly being rendered intangible etc...
IF he uses his speed I think this fight is over personally. A traditional slug fest would be to Hulk's best case of winning the fight. Superboy Prime's heat vision is also capable of cutting through Superman class beings while he is weakened and his super cold breath was apparently colder than the void of space shattering fodder GL's if I recall correctly. A more impressive feat of his super cold breath would be stopping Superman instantly in Legion of Three Worlds.
Comics are filled with space cheese feats but they're also filled with fighting cheese feats as well with characters affecting being well above their pay grade see Black Panther vs Silver Surfer.
Neither are a fool proof system of comparing character crossover fights or the relation of power between character A and B. In this case, (and most cases with me) the space cheese for both of the characters I feel should be taken into account along with the relative character comparisons to get a full and accurate picture of their power and how it was depicted.
I wouldn't want the wrecking of a dimension being ignored if I was backing a character in a debate I can assure you of that.
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 24th, 2014 at 02:53 AM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Perhaps, Perhaps not...but that does not change the fact that in terms of strength the feat is considerably inferior to WBH's in HOTM.
You misunderstand me, I do not mean that Monarch did not tank any of the attacks these beings which he clearly did. He was in a fight with them and so would clearly have to endure some of these attacks as you have shown. My point of issue though, was that initially i thought you were implying that Monarch took the combined attacks of all of the characters you had mentioned i.e 52 Captain Atoms, Green lanters, Conner Kent, multiple superman etc, simultaneously. That is something which clearly did not happen. Subsequently, while he did tank several attacks from the aforementioned characters at different points in time, none of the attacks which he tanked are even remotely comparable in terms of force outputted, to that endured by WBH unscathed, at the epicentre of the HOTM collission. The attacks dont even match up to the shockwave and the force Hulk tanked at that epicentre would be exponentially (multiple orders of magnitutde) greater than that contained within the shockwave that ravaged Umars realm, disintegrated the enitrety of the mindless ones, Armcheddon,Bi Beast, Wendigo, Foom at 17 hercs worth of power etc. The difference is gargantuan to put it mildly.
Its true that Monarch did tank multiple herald level attacks as you have shown and that is no doubt impressive....but the attacks in question, have nowhere near the same level of force output that the epicentre of the collission in HOTM did. WBH did not merely no sell the attacks of multiple herald level characters, he compeletely no sold an output of force exponentially greater than that which..... disintegrated multiple herald level characters, a being measured at 17 hercs in power level, and also disintegrated the totality of an army of being powerful enough in conjunction to overwhelm a Hell-Lord in her own realm...and ravaged the realm itself to boot.
We are talking about two completely different levels of output here and unlike in the case of prime (which you thankfully accept) this is by default due to his limited appearances, peak WBH's established durability level . Hence there is nothing that comes close to establishing the armour as having equal let alone superior durablitity to WBH as he appeared at the end of HOTM.
It follows therefore that your reasoning in which Prime rips WBH open in a way similar to how he did Monarch completely falls apart as you have not at all established that Monarch's armor is more durable than WBH.
Your Monarch comparison is flawed and you have not come close to establishing the soundness of the your claim that Monarch's durablity is superior to peak WBH's. My argument is centred on WBH's durability against a level of force (the epicentre of the collission) that was exponentially above.... a level force (the shockwave) that was itself already above typical herald level outputs. What you showed from Monarch is in no way analogous.
If Prime uses his speed extensively he will definitely win. In the vast majority of his fights however he tends not to, even while being fully determined to win and fighting at full capacity (with his much discusssed fight with Monarch serving as just one of many examples). Id argue that this falls under CIS as oppossed to PIS and is thus still in effect as per forum rules. In that case, id say Hulk has the advantage.
I actually completely agree with this as neither of the methods on their own are foolproof. And I certainly am not advocating that the collateral damage part of the HOTM be ignored or disregarded as it obviously enhances the feats impressiveness.
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I don't think any other character there could touch the anti-matter the Anti-Monitor was generating without being annihilated.
Here is where we'll go in circles since Prime survived Monarch's energies fully released when earlier a fraction of the energy released by Monarch literally took out dozens of herald level characters in the countdown arena.
I wouldn't say the Dark Dimension shockwave was more powerful than what he endured with Monarch. The energy released by Monarch would vaporize all the characters in the Dark Dimension imo including Fing Fang Foom and his 17 hercs powerlevel.
So if your arguing that WBH durability is higher because he survived the collision its INCORRECT because Prime survived a Universe buster point blank (where a fraction of Monarch's energy vaporized herald level beings earlier).
The ONLY possible argument for WBH durability being higher than Prime's is his consistency being unharmed by herald level characters.
I addressed this up above. WBH's durability only exceeds Prime by average. Hulk's highest durability showing does not in anyway exceed Prime's highest shown durability feat.
Prime's durability reminds me of Thanos in the sense that while the mad titan is affected by herald level force sometimes, Thor making his nose bleed etc.... then other times he no sells herald level attacks like the Sliver Surfer. But the most important thing is that Thanos has survived Odin, Galactus, etc... attacking him. His durability against power far beyond herald level holds up, long enough for him to survive battles with skyfather and beyond tiers. Prime is the same way in terms of durability to me.
I felt it was a possibility to consider it was more durable because not only had it withstood multiple herald level beings attacking it without putting so much a scratch in its shell. It also endured a Trans Tier beings like Christopher Kent attacking it with all his power. In his physical form Kent effortlessly defeated two Supermen, one of which being Red Son, a character I've seen some people argue is already superior to the mainstream Superman (do to his average portrayal and feats like tanking 6 exploding blackholes, etc...).
Kent then transforms into an even more powerful energy form and attacks Monarch without putting a scratch in him.
We see his armor standing up to attacks from the tip top heralds of the DC universe in Supermen, GL's, Wonder Women, and Captain Atoms without a scratch. The point of Countdown is stressing to us that the power of all these characters mean nothing to Monarch (and I don't think working together they could've pierced his armor either). He even states he is more powerful than all 52 Supermen of the Universe combined and from what we see of his power I see no reason to doubt this at all.
So the question is where does the durability of the armor rank in your eyes and why is it inherently less durable than WBH's skin when the only thing seen to breach its defenses was Prime and his ridiculous strength?
It's interesting because I find your entire argument is based on two things. One, the power of the collision destroying herald level characters and one trans character with Fing. Two, the durability of World Breaker Hulk against herald level force and his durability surviving the collision itself.
Both of these points go out the window with Monarch.
The power of Monarch exceeds the collision of the Hulks in the Dark Dimension and Prime survives it, but he is ko'd. And the durability of the Hulk is exceeded by Prime's highest durability showing surviving Monarch's explosion. The strength of Prime with everything being factored in from FTL planets to shifting Universes axis, and tearing open Monarch's armor, I don't think is below Hulk's strength.
You have a position on Hulk's overall durability being more consistent than Prime. But this isn't as unassailable a position as you think Naija Boy because Prime has endured worse than what Hulk has dished out without being killed.
I'm confused here, why would using his speed defeat Monarch faster, the nanosecond he tears open his armor the energy is released? Unless you mean to grab Monarch and take him through the Source Wall or something so the explosion wouldn't destroy his special earth he had searched for?
And of course you think Hulk has the advantage here, otherwise what are we arguing about?
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 24th, 2014 at 06:30 AM
Monarch's armor actually held up under this assault until Prime lost his Guardian Amp. This is the same Prime that beat up a Monitor, captured Mxy, etc... and most impressively to me, destroyed parts of the Source Wall which imprisons even gods and characters like Superman and Darkseid cannot free themselves from alone.
He smashed it apart as if it was made of tissue paper with strength and heat vision which Monarch's armor endured an even angrier Prime attacking him before Prime lost it after the amp and threw a hissy fit before tearing him open at a weaker powerlevel.
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 24th, 2014 at 07:06 AM
No, it's a feat, just not the one you seem to be trying to make it out to be. Mxy didn't have a chance to fight back against SMP. Apparently, SMP needed Atannaz to depower him to, at the very least, keep Mxy there.
Make up your mind here mindset 1st you say it's not a feat, then you say it is a feat, just not the one I want.
What do I want here?
Did Superman Prime yes or no, kidnap Mxy from the 5th dimension?
Did he invade the 5th dimension under his own power, yes or no, and leave a gaping hole in the dimension?
Since, this is not a feat, or a rather a luck luster one in your eyes, is this a feat you see many DC characters replicating and if so at what level would these characters be?
It probably is PIS since the whole concept of 5th dimensional imps were supposedly because they were higher dimensional their feats appear to be magic but its them just rewriting our 3 and 4 dimensional physical laws at will.
I personally think the reason Mxy fled in fear from Prime once his powers were restored is because (and this is speculation) he assumed his "magical abilities" wouldn't work on the kid like many other characters had failed (Mordru etc...).
Mxy himself said he wasn't up to snuff or he would go back and defeat the super psycho or something to that affect.
But it does not take away from Prime physically tearing his way up the 5th dimension and kidnapping Mxy initially imo. It's one thing to punch your way of the Phantom Zone but to just tear into the 5th dimension and kidnap a dimensional imp is brazen powerful to me.
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