This thread is in reference to a back and forth argument between Stoic and myself. My argument is to prove that Hulk strength starts at High Herald and Stoic argument is to prove that Hulk doesn't start anywhere close to that. What i am going to do is post comments from the thread in question and have judges reply on either of our stance. If Hulk starts at the strength i stated or if he starts below High Herald level...to the point that he could get overwhelmed by a Herald during the Onset of the battle.
Stoic then states that Hulk strength ramps up every 5 minutes (will post that soon) and his base, basically the onset of his strength isn't enough to challenge a High Herald. So let's begin.
The voters are:
Darksaint
Riv
Bently
Replies are on the way. People are free to post since this isn't a battlezone but please do not derail the thread. Bada, please stay on board because I'm sure I would probably need you to delete some posts.
Stoic post (I'm not posting everything because it's over 10 pages of material. If the judges are interested in more material, it is in the Hulk vs Thor/Bill thread).
No characters, especially the main ones start at extraordinary levels. They usually attains said level once they become desperate.
That's the Deus Ex Machina's the author's implores into the story as a valid reasoning why a powerful monster like the Hulk not squishing his oppositions that are far weaker than him whenever he faces them.
Below is an emboldened and simplified version of how the Hulk's power/s work. There has been more detailed references of how they work, but this is all that I could retrieve online.
Hulk
The Hulk possesses the potential for limitless physical strength depending directly on his emotional state, particularly his anger. This has been reflected in the repeated comment, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets." The cosmically-powerful entity known as the Beyonder once analyzed the Hulk's physiology, and claimed that the Hulk's potential strength had" no finite element inside. Hulk's strength has been depicted as sometimes limited by Banner's subconscious influence; when Jean Grey psionically "shut Banner off", Hulk became strong enough to overpower and destroy the physical form of the villain Onslaught.
If the current Hulk on average begins off at High Herald levels of strength, and he gains strength as depicted by the way that his power actually works, how in the world would a mid - high herald character ever give him any form of resistance? Wouldn't he immediately over-shadow an opponent of this level? There was only one version of the Hulk that was able to consistently walk around in a calm state with high herald strength, and that was the Green Scar incarnation of the Hulk, who was able to boost up his strength by consciously willing himself to become stronger. the Savage Hulk did not possess the fine control over his emotions to do this. This was indirectly stated during the Planet hulk storyline, when he was taught how to meditate and consciously raise his physical stats.
Do we ignore that the Hulk grows stronger as time passes, and he becomes more excited to suit our view of the character sometimes. Or is the "madder he gets the stronger he gets" remain in effect as a constant?
Other than that, there were a very limited amount of times that he was able to raise his level of strength nearly as fast as the Green Scar version of the character could. War Hulk was one, and when Jean Grey buried or bound up the Banner portion of his psyche when he had his conflict with Onslaught was two. These are the only times that I can recall the Hulk breaking past the High Herald strength level before 5 minutes had elapsed.
With War Hulk he is rigged with Celestial technology, which allows him to tap into his power more efficiently than he was able to do previous to this story. Even here we see that it takes him time to ramp up, as the Juggernaut pushes him through a stretch of desert until he gains enough strength to slow Cain down to a near stop.
If we look at the characters that actually have High herald level strength like the Sentry did prior to his death, we see that a normal Savage hulk does not actually begin off at that level of strength.
When we look at Rulk, and how he was able to easily beat the Savage Hulk on more than one occasion, but then look at how the Green Scar was able to defeat him handily, we actually see that the Savage Hulk is not on this level of power when referring to his initial strength, and where it begins at the onset of combat.
When Thor fought Rulk during round 2, the Savage Hulk was there with him, and Rulk began to have his way with the Savage hulk, and would have beaten him again. Thor jumps in, and it was because of Thor, that the Hulk wasn't beaten down once again.
The Merged version of the Hulk was stated to have a base strength level greater than the Savage Hulk, and yet he was challenged by Wonder Man. The Merged Hulk fought a weakened Thor in the Antarctic, and he was unable to show that he was actually superior to Thor. Some say Thor won, some say the hulk won. I call it a draw. The Merged Hulk had Mid - High Herald strength.
PIS or not PIS
This is not me low balling the Hulk. It is my way of making heads or tails of the Hulk being KO'd by Spider Man, and Captain America. My view is that he was on a far weaker level than average, which allowed for him to be KO'd by these guys.
This again is not me low balling, but trying to make sense of how something like that could happen before throwing the PIS card out there. My only other thought of it, was that it was PIS, because neither of these two can hit harder than the guys that have failed to KO the Hulk in the past. Ignoring this, and saying that I am low balling without believing my claim will be on your head. I just made my thoughts known on the subject.
The reason why I would view Spider Man, or someone of his caliber KOing Thor, Firelord or any other character of this stature as PIS, while leaving the poor Hulk out in the rain, is because they have a constant level of strength, and durability. The Hulk does not. The Hulk does not have a static level of strength, but his strength, and other stats are dynamic.
The Madder I get, t stronger I become phenomena
This is a psychological statement, and to me this means that the transference of power begins with Banner in his human form. The level that the Savage Hulk begins at, depends directly on the stimuli that causes Banner (Human form) to change into the Hulk (Super irritated form).
For instance; if Banner in his human form is at the dentist, and suddenly gets the frights from a needle that he knows will be stuck into the cavity in his mouth, and changes into the Hulk due to his self induced panic, he may not come in as strong as he would, if he saw a Plane falling out of the sky, and needed to save his wife from dying. This concerns his initial transformation.
Anyone that has been on this site for long enough, knows that i am a Hulk fan, but, I will not ignore the way his powers work. This in no way indicates that I do not like the character. I just can't make him into something that he simply isn't. The writers have gone through gauntlets to emphasize that the Hulk has weaknesses.
Before the Green Scar hit shelves, the Hulk has never been as powerful as this. Once it was over, they did nearly everything short of a retcon to bury this persona. They turned him dumb again, got him shot in the head, made him as detached as Mr. Spock (ref. Doc Green) who is too logical to go ape-shit like the Caiera mourning Green Scar did. The writers will not have the Hulk parading about above other characters, because he would be become a plot bullet character, and they would have no use for him in team scenarios.
What happens to plot bullet characters guys? What happened to Korvak? Where is Death Seed Sentry? How often is Thanos used? Why isn't Galactus used more often than he is? Why did the Dark Phoenix meet her end? Why isn't the World Breaking Green Scar still running around turning Herald level characters to dust? Why am I bringing this up, and what is my point?
They can't use a character, that can take a hit from Gladiator without flinching. he would outshine everyone's favorite character, and render them irrelevant. After all, do you see the World breaker being hindered by Proxima Midnight?
I think I gave my stance, and that I don't have any more to
state on the subject to be honest Carver. We can agree to disagree
There is also the judges that you brought into this that need to give
their opinion of it. I'm done after this.
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Oct 29th, 2014 05:55 PM
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