Was the Sentry weakened during his battle with WWH? One_Angry_Scot vs Carver9
So the subject of this battlezone will be during the WWH storyline, was the Sentry weakened via his mental illness when he engaged in his battle with the Hulk?
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My stance is that he was weakened due to this
And on the other side we have my opponent Carver9 who disagrees with my statement.
Now for the rules.
We have agreed on this post order.
1. Carver9's first post detailing his argument.
2. My counter.
3. Carver's reply
4. My reply.
And the last 2 posts can be left just for arguments or summarising the BZ in general.
The 3 judges we have for this BZ currently are.
1. Leonidas
2. DarkSaint
3. Supermex
Good luck to Carver and I hope everyone enjoys the Battlezone.
Let's begin. The last discussion One Shot and myself had...he thought Sentry was weakened due to him standing in front of a door for 24 hrs and some humans in a helicopter saying Sentry have mental problems. We also discussed if Sentry was holding back in which he said yes. I asked him again via PM and he said that he will provide that in his posts. I don't know if his stance has changed but if it's the same, I completely disagree with that since it goes against the entire arc and goes against Sentry needing to expend everything in order to stop Hulk. My first scan is Ironman explaining to Sentry the importance of him fighting the Hulk. He explains that Sentry is the only being with enough power to stop a being of this power. Sentry seems worried because he knows that he would have to give EVERYTHING to stop WWH. Sentry standing at the front door for hours took place before the scan i am presenting.
Tony tells Sentry that he would need to play god to save Earth from Hulk as shown here.
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As shown in the scan Sentry is worried. Not worried about him being weakened during a fight like this. He is worried about the power he would have to unleash against an opponent like WWH. He knows that it would take any and everything to stop this being. Let's continue...
As shown in the scan above Sentry knew what kind of power it would take to stop WWH with no evidence 'after this' of him having any mental illnesses. Sentry then join the battle. When Sentry get there, to the battlefield to face Hulk, what does he say? "It's time to play god".
Doesn't sound like a guy that is having any mental issues or holding back. This guy is full of confidence. Let's continue. Now we need to find out if he was holding back his power against the Hulk. Would a guy say this if he was holding back?
Hulk tells Sentry "you don't want this fight Sentry". What does Sentry say?
"Oh God yes I do. You're the only one I can hit like THIS".
Doesn't sound like a guy that was holding back, let alone weakened. Let's continue...
This next response goes back to the first scan i posted. Here Sentry unleash enough energy to not only throw Hulk some ft away but it has Earth hero's worried. Ben states "I guess he is busting out those powers of a million exploding suns" and what does Reed say after this? "But he's a shizo, scared of his own power...HE'S NEVER UNLEASHED LIKE THIS BEFORE. Tony, what did you tell him?".
Tony states "I told him that sometimes you have to play god". As shown in this scan as well, Pak also have them telling us that everything else on the planet will be destroyed because of Sentry.
As shown here, this is evidence that Sentry is doing exactly what he feared...he is unleashing all of his power as shown here.
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That power he was afraid of using because of the well beings of others has been unleashed. Sentry isn't holding anything back and this isn't per my words either. Sentry tells us he isn't holding anything back.
"Aaaahhhh Bruce, you have to tell me something, does it always feel this good when you finally let go"?
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More proof that he is unleashing. Listen to his words. "All these yrs i tried to calm you down and now at the end of it all, it's me who can't seem to stop".
Goodbye old friend. Sentry knew everything was going to end because of his power output which is the reason he told him goodbye. Well, that's what I'm getting from it. I think that is solid proof that Sentry didn't have any mental issues during that fight. To the point that he himself admitted that he was playing god and convinced Tony of this. Convinced Reed and Ben that he was unleashing the power of a million exploding suns and even convinced himself along with others that the world was about to end.
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On ignore list: Darksaint and Stilt
Last edited by carver9 on Dec 4th, 2014 at 11:27 PM
Your first paragraph is filled with a couple of misconceptions. I say and stand by it he was weakened by his mental illness but not because of one thing. That's absolutely untrue. And to further continue Carver states that it's because I said he stood in the doorway for 29 hours.
Which isn't true. It is part of my argument. But this is what Carver has left out. Is the actual scan itself.
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In which Tony first asks Robert what is he scared of, and he replies with "It's the Agoraphobia. Some days it's...
I can't...
I'm sorry Tony, you'll have to handle this one yourself"
This is the conversation that proceeds after this scan (although it takes place a few comics before)
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So carver has left out the part in which Sentry already states the Agoraphobia is affecting him. And as we know Sentry's power varies greatly on his mental state. So that's already 1 huge indicator it was affecting him. And him standing in a door way for 29 Hours is because he was in such a bad state he didn't want to go outside.
Which is common for people with Agoraphobia being scared of going outside (mixing in queues being in crowds) as I know myself. Although I have to admit I haven't clashed with the Hulk before...
He gets it wrong again. He says Sentry standing at the door took place before that scan, He is wrong because as we see, one of the people speaking outside the house says "I thought Iron Man spoke to him when this whole thing started, what the heck happened with that".
So if the person outside is saying what he said. Unless Greg Pak hugely messed up in his writing there is no possible situation in which it could have happened before. As why would they have mentioned Stark talking to him?
First of all I never said he was worried about being weakened. As that isn't what generally goes through a persons head. I will explain what I actually mean compared to what Carver is attributing to it. Sentry says "... Against an opponent this powerful...The amount of energy I'd have to expend...If I lost control, for even a millisecond".
The scan just for reference
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By this Sentry means that due to his Agoraphobia he is and rightly so extremely scared of the Void. And when he loses control when he exerts a lot of power due to his mental state he risks releasing the Void. Here is another perfect example.
Here Sentry is with Jim Hammond in a comic.
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In this scan Jim Hammond takes advantage of the Sentry by telling him that he is giving him "more of that power you are always talking about". And due to Sentry's nature with regards to his mental state him releasing his power (unless he is stable) can cause him to lose control. And this is why in this scan Sentry flys away. With the only reason being he hasn't lost it here because he isn't actually receiving any power rather than he is being burnt. Except with the fact Jim Hammond is exploiting him so that he can remove him from the Battlefield. What he is speaking of in this scan Carver has mentioned is the exact same thing we see in that comic. But this time Robert doesn't have a choice to leave, as Tony says.
"But at this point, doing nothing is a decision in and of itself. No matter what you do or don't do, billions could die".
Carver then says,
"As shown in the scan above Sentry knew what kind of power it would take to stop WWH with no evidence 'after this' of him having any mental illnesses."
He didn't know what kind of power he needed, he is just saying he would need to exert a very large amount against an opponent like WWH. He then says with no evidence "after this" of having any mental illnesses".
And to be honest I don't really know how to respond to that, if you have read the comic we know that the part where he says
"It's the Agoraphobia. Some days it's...
I can't...
I'm sorry Tony, you'll have to handle this one yourself"
is before this conversation and the scan where Sentry mentions all this energy is straight after he mentions the Agoraphobia. So again I don't see how Carver can suggest he see's no sign of a mental illness when we all know infact this was the part of the same conversation.
Nope Carver mentions this scan. The "It's time to play God". I will explain this as well. As we already know the Agoraphobia was affecting him as I already presented. Then Tony said he had no choice. Sentry clearly wasn't going to intervene anyway until as shown by this scan.
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Hulk was playing the role of the Emperor, thumbs up to let the Gladiator live or thumbs down if he is to be killed. Hulk puts his thumb down. Which is when as Tony said it doesn't really matter what he does or doesn't because billions could die. But as he says in the "it's time to play God scan". He tells Robert "You have the responsibility whether you want it or not". And he continues to say "I know you're not ready to hear this Robert, No sane person ever really is. But it's time to play God".
And by saying "No sane person ever really is" he is indicating even for a fully stable person that would be a hard thing to hear, so imagine what it must be like to Sentry?
Him (Carver) saying
"Doesn't sound like a guy that is having any mental issues or holding back. This guy is full of confidence."
Is neither here or there. We already know he was being affected by his Agoraphobia due to what has been said. Him saying "It's time to play God" has no relation to anything. He could be saying it because Tony said it to him or because he sees Hulk is trying to kill someone so Robert is deciding to "Play God" to stop him. Nothing is ever implied with regards to his mental illness.
His next part of his message is Carver trying to describe what someone would say when they are holding back, which is wrong. You can't just attribute words. The thing is with Carvers argument he is trying to go through scans and picking out words (not stating I am not) to say each time Sentry says something it means he isn't holding back. But the thing is it wont work in your favour when the subject you are debating is irrelevant to the scan.
One thing to think of would be why Hulk said "You don't want this fight Sentry"? This is something for judges to think of (as it is purely an idea.
Was he saying it because he knew what could happen. My idea is that Hulk may have known the implications of what may happen if Sentry did want the fight. Here are the scans for everyone to see.
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It reminds me a lot of what Hulk says near the end of the battle.
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"Stupid Humans, you think your machines can stop him?"
This section was mainly for judges and a quick question for Carver too I guess.
Again Carver says this "Doesn't sound like a guy that was holding back, let alone weakened. Let's continue..."
He is again attributing words to him, people who are weakened mentally aren't weakened as if they have a broken arm. Sentry is weakened mentally with regards or his power level being lower and he is more liable exert power without caring. So it's another misrepresentation.
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Carver quotes the scan where Reed says due to Robert being an Agoraphobic Schizophrenic he has never unleashed his power like this.
Now something we need to clarify that Reed hasn't explicitly stated a power level i.e "IT's over 9000!"
He just said he has never seen him unleash it in this way. But like we have discussed when Robert is stable he rarely if anything releases a huge amount of power. He can keep it contained when he is stable. If you recall in Sentry Vol 2 Sentry fights the Void. But did we see him throwing out gargantuan blasts of energy ripping the landscape apart? No we didn't.
Heck look at this scan from the Genis Vell fight.
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We can see Sentry and Photon are releasing energy to shatter entire worlds while holding back. But is he letting out so much power that he is levelling a large area.
In fact he is in the microverse where in this case the atoms in the Microverse are the size of planets. So in this world he is barely expending any energy outside of his being.
Sure I agree with Carver, they said what he said. But it again doesn't imply Sentry was cutting loose deliberately. All they are saying is what they are saying.
Carver again is sneaking in words here. I will highlight the problematic parts of it.
"As shown here, this is evidence that Sentry is doing exactly what he feared...he is unleashing all of his power as shown here.
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That power he was afraid of using because of the well beings of others has been unleashed. Sentry isn't holding anything back and this isn't per my words either. Sentry tells us he isn't holding anything back.
Firstly we know it wasn't all of his power. That isn't right at all. One we know he was weakened so he wasn't unleashing his full power.
What he was doing was failing to contain the power he was expending due to his mental state.
The other parts I have bolded mainly been explained by my other posts. We know that it's due to him losing control. Like he feared and partly what I think Hulk perhaps not feared but knew would happen. But anyways onto other parts of your message. One quick thing I will throw in. Carver saying "proof he is unleashing" again is neither here nor there. To everyone watching the fight he is unleashing.
I mean imagine me, Carver, Supermex, DarkSaint and Leonidas were all sitting there watching the fight. We would all say he is unleashing. But as we as people reading a comic we can dissect the comic and see that infact he is unleashing. But he is unleashing a lower level of power due to him being weakened.
But due to his bad mental state he couldn't contain it. Which is why Sentry said.
"... Against an opponent this powerful...The amount of energy I'd have to expend...If I lost control, for even a millisecond"."
Because this would happen. He would lose control and end up exerting to much due to his mental state.
Now my final words for the battlezone.
Carver hasn't fully quoted Sentry, this is what he said.
"All these years...I tried too calm you down. And now at the end of it all...It's me...who can't seem to stop. Goodbye old friend"
If Sentry wasn't holding back (under his own control) would he say them words, because if someone wasn't holding back they would repeatedly be pounding into him. But as Robert says "It's me... who can't seem to stop" he is losing control (or has depending on your opinion). Also note Sentry was allowing Hulk to punch him much like in the beginning of the battle where he said "just once more
Carver also says he is unleashing the power of a million exploding suns based on what Reed and Ben said. But like explained I have covered this in another reply.
What I have to add is that at the end of the battle it briefly became World War Sentry #5. Here I will post the 3 scans I am speaking of.
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As we see this is right at the end of the battle. There was no other choice for the Hulk than to stop Sentry. He literally had no other choice.
As we see Hulk say.
"Stupid. They can call you whatever they want. Savior. Destroyer. All that matters... is what you choose"
Hulk had one last shot at convincing Robert before he destroyed the world. And this was it. Hulks words get through to the Sentry. As we see in the 2nd panel Sentry's eyes are faltering. Then after they punch eachother for the last time. This happens.
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Robert is thanking Bruce for making him think about what he could be, and Robert chose the Savior.
And this is backed up by the man himself. Greg Pak.
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This is now the end of my posts on this battlezone. I originally intended it to count as one but now I see it I can't continue to argue in any other direction.
I will make a statement on my thoughts with my last reply.
So like I have said, I intended for my post to be 1 but I have decided that to be honest. Me and Carver have given our opinions (so really I changed the rules with my first message and I guess I am (changing them back again as I thought I would need to)
So this is my first battlezone, I have thoroughly enjoyed writing it all. I really enjoyed the debate between me and Carver and I will be looking forward to the judges opinions.
I will PM them now so they can comment on the thread with their opinions after Carver has given his opinion on the battlezone.
1st of all I would like to thank Carver9 for the debate, I regard him as a very good friend on the forums and I live for debate. I appreciate the effort he put into his side of the argument and I look forward to debating with him in the future.
Secondly I would like to in advance say I hope the judges enjoy reading this debate between the 2 of us.
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Last edited by One_Angry_Scot on Dec 5th, 2014 at 01:28 AM
Nothing against you One Angry but your posts seems like a lot of assumptions imo. Let me tell you why...
We all know that Sentry mental illness is ALWAYS there. This isn't something that disappears over time. Even after the WWH arc he was still mentally unstable, so we can't pick and choose which fights to accept as legit for the Sentry because he has issues. We would need concrete proof and I don't think the scans presented is enough.
In the first scan Sentry tells us that some days, his condition isn't... he never tells us if it was impacting him at that moment, he just say "some days". Was his condition messing with him on that day? Probably, but he never told us this, he just said "some days, its... I can't". Sentry then have his talk with Stark and moments later he tells us he is about to play god.
He also states that I left out Sentry telling us that it is affecting him. Where did Sentry tell us this? He never did. He just said "some days, its... that isn't telling us anything. He is letting us know that his condition impacts him sometimes but was it on that day? Did he tell us this? No. He never outright say "my condition is bothering me today. Maybe I need to stay away from fighting the Hulk". You have to remember, this condition is ALWAYS there...which fights do we dismiss for the Sentry and which fight do we accept? Do we accept all of his high showings where he beats or stalemates someone and use it as his average or do we accept all unless stated otherwise by the Sentry that his condition was bothering him. There were times where Sentry straight up owned people even though his mentality wasn't all there. Here is an example of Sentry during his mental stages. He was acting child like during this story, to the point that he attacked Doom for nothing...asking Doom to put things back the way they were.
This same Sentry handles a punch from Ben better than any top tier I've seen.
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So here we have Sentry with a child like mentality. Obvious something is wrong with him but he casually owns Doom physically and tanks a punch from Ben better than Thor, Hulk, and BB combined. Is there a limit to this? When do we know when his power is down? It wasn't said during WWH. Hell, the opposite was said (time to play god, you're the only one I can punch like THIS. Does it always feel this good this good to let go).
In the next scan he post where Sentry and Ironman is talking...he said that Sentry was talking about Void when he was discussing the amount of power output he would have to dish out when facing Hulk. Where did he get that from in that scan? No where in that scan did Sentry even mention Void. No where. So I have no ideal where One Angry got that from. Also, in the scan where he is fighting Human Torch, him giving Sentry more power doesn't mean Sentry was weakened. Had a lot to do with Sentry being afraid of his own power.
Also, like I previously said, we can't just dish out every fight that doesn't go Sentry way because of a mental issue Sentry has. If we are saying he was weakened against Hulk, then why not against Genis, Terrax, Absorbing man, etc... this isn't a condition that can be turned on and off. It's always there. So which fights do we accept and not accept? What we do know is that Bob gave his all against WWH because he said "is this how it feels to let go". Nothing was said before hand of him being weakened, let alone having aby mental issues that was hindering him/his power.
He then brings up Sentry being able to contain his power as shown in the Sentry vs Genis fight. How is that containing power when he almost killed Cap while dishing out planetary power near the same surface Cap was on. Genis has to teleport Cap from the battlefield in prevention of him getting killed as Genis and Sentry fought.
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Looking at the scans above, Sentry didn't even care about Cap well being. Don't see how anyone would consider that 'containing power'. If Genis wasn't there, Cap probably would've died.
He then states that Sentry during his fight against Hulk was failing to contain the power due to his mental state. That was never said. What Sentry did tell us is, he was letting go. He was Amazed at how it felt to unleash.
He say Hulk didn't have a choice but to stop Sentry 'per words'. I disagree entirely. If Hulk words had anything to do with Sentry stopping, why we're they still pounding on each other until the end?
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Why continue to pound on someone if you are trying to stop them from fighting. You cant take Pak words for it because he is unsure (and on panel evidence overrides writers opinions) per his own words and Hulk pounded on Sentry until he passed out (and Sentry was hitting Hulk as well) and was carried to the hospital.
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So again, you have to ask yourself...what fights do we accept of Sentry. His condition is always there...he's never stable. Do we only accept the fights he wins. Do we only accept his high showings as his norm when he can remember who he is? Where does this stop. In every last one of his fight his mental issues were there. This isn't something that disappears. He is afraid of his own power, that doesn't mean he is weakened every time he is in combat.
As shown here, Sentry rushed in swinging but that's all it took was the right words to send him flying off. Not because he was weakened, not because his powers were being drained, he fled because he was given too much power.
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Do we exempt this showing as well? Would this be considered a weakened Sentry? I don't think so because his mentality is part of him. There could be times where he is or could be weakened but I don't think this should be a guessing game. I think it needs to be something that is broadcasted to us. What I do know is that Sentry faced Hulk and said that he was playing god. Sentry also said that "is this how it feels to let go", he also said, "you're the only person I can hit like THIS". Too much is being thrown at us to know Sentry came to the battle with the mindset of taking Hulk out. Pak threw at us in the same story that Sentry was dishing out the power of exploding suns. Pak had Reed say Sentry never used his power like this before. Had people thinking it was the end. All of this was thrown at us and Sentry felt as if he was ready when he jumped into the battle and came in smiling. The evidence is there. The words are there...it's up to you to determine the meaning. While you're thinking of that, answer this. If Sentry wasn't holding back/wasn't at full power, I'm pretty sure all of you are familiar with the character and knows he is mentally unstable. Which fights was he stable? Which fights do we accept for the character and why? Why accept that as a non holding back Sentry and not this one? His mental issues is always there. It doesn't take much to trigger it. As shown here, before this he was fighting Ironman with not trouble at all (will post scans afterwards) and then Ironman use Cloc to load numerous of natural disasters etc and Sentry goes into a mental breakdown because too much was being thrown at him.
Was Sentry weakened there as well? When do we accept his loses? He is always mentally unstable. ALWAYS. If Hulk would've defeated him by saying the right words, would that have been a weakened Sentry as well? Hell, what is a Sentry at his Prime? Does anyone know. If he would've defeated WWH, would that have been a Sentry at his Prime? Who knows but I don't think we should classify this fight, his Hulk fight as a weaned Sentry unless stated otherwise 'in the comic'. This falls back on the Gladiator/Kallark thing we have in place. When is he confident? Can I say that since he didn't do this and that against Thor, he wasn't full confident? He was weakened. This applies to every character who's abilities clings to their personality. Hulk being one of them. I have just as much rights as Sentry fans does to say Hulk was weakened since his powers thrives off of his personality. It wouldn't make me any different than One Angry. I'm done unless something else is said after this.
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Last edited by carver9 on Dec 5th, 2014 at 06:22 PM
Also...I think the judges should give their answers to a single poster...someone that isn't involved in this battlezone. Bada, or someone and they post the judges response in here. That would prevent anyone from being provoked by another members/judges post. I'll PM Bada.
KMC Community Forums
Dec 4th, 2014 08:48 PM
