I disagree on ROTS Sidious being stronger than Vitiate in the force. As an all out warrior though, he is superior like you said. DE Sidious is truly as powerful as you depict him here and his feats/accolades are superior than Vitiate's but why do you think Vitiate's accolades are hyperbolic?
He may not have many battle showings but that's due to his position in the EU. Sidious was a member of RoT. He was expected to be the full package as he had to be a scholar, a warrior, a sorcerer and a cunning puppet master at the same time which helped him become the ultimate sith. As much as he liked to use others to do his work for him, Sidious ultimately had to get involved in events directly as a force user. Vitiate, on the other hand had thousands of force users serving him and he ruled them in seclusion. These circumstances made Vitiate less of a warrior and less interested in melee combat as he didnt believe he would need it. Sidious looked down upon lightsaber usage too but the difference is, he needed it no matter how powerful he was. I believe Sidious wouldn't be this good with the saber if he was born in TOR era.
Also, due to the circumstances he was in, Vitiate also didnt find himself in situations were he had to display his full raw power as almost no one could match him including HoT because that encounter doesn't count for obvious reasons. We only know that whether it is the Dread Masters or powerful jedi strike teams or even entire dark councils, Vitiate managed to stand tall above all in such competitive era for 1400 years.
SWTOR Revan is the strongest here imo but I can't avoid being biased when it comes to StarKiller. This is a lesser version of Revan too which doesn't help team 2.
I personally disagree with a few minor details. However, on 1vs1, ROTS Sidious is a more lethal character than any version of Vitiate so far and this isnt Vitiate's most powerful incarnation. Revan and Malgus won't be in any position to assist him and so team 1 should win here.
Last edited by Sinious on Jan 9th, 2015 at 12:06 PM
That's not remotely as impressive as being infinitely more powerful then something that can turn Meetra and Scourge to ash, or obliterate Nyriss' barrier and destroy her. Sorry.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Given that the former are unimpressive and the latter only appears impressive due to her ability to dominate the former, I'm unimpressed. Sidious wins. Sorry.
Oh I wasn't thinking of the Novel Vitiate there. It depends on how much you choose to acknowledge the dark council purges for Vitiate's feats imo.
Even though this isn't SWTOR Vitiate, I'm not as sure as you are about ROTS Sidious' superiority in the force. Mainly due to 2 reasons:
1) I don't believe any sith/jedi is powerful enough to casually one-shot an entire dark council but people underestimate Vitiate via prep factor a bit too much. Prep doesn't turn every top tier into a being that powerful so the council purges hint Vitiate's shocking level of power.
2) Vitiate was an unusually prodigious force user. He dedicated himself to studying the force in order to obtain even more power than he naturally gained(which was most likely IMMENSE already) which led him to the Natemha ritual. As you know, he spent a millennia after that doing almost nothing but studying the force ever further, participating in rituals that amped his power and constantly drained servants that dedicated their lives to boost his power. This is a crucial detail because you too have admitted that even a great being like Sidious wasn't able to grow stronger a lot during PT cause he had to focus on other occupations. The novel Vitiate comes after all that so there is no reason to doubt his position as a challenger against ROTS Sidious here. At least in the force.
We've seen/read about Force adepts wielding comically disproportionate power via ritual and/or Force nexus. What's more, you're creating a false dilemma. Vitiate does wield "a shocking level of power." I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean he's more powerful than Sidious, who also wields a "shocking level of power."
Agreed. But Sidious isn't?
The problem that even Neph, one of Vitiate's biggest fanboys, acknowledged is that Vitiate's feats and accolades really don't align with his origins. Meanwhile, Sidious's accolades and feats are actually disproportionately higher than his origins. Sidious has more to his name after 90+ years than Vitiate does in 1400+ and rituals to enhance his power. Both are prodigies, but Sidious is demonstrably much more so.
I suggest you use yours. Even if we limit Meetra and Scourge's power, being able to overpower the defenses of (at worst) 2 high-level Jedi Masters and still have enough power to incinerate (burn to ash) them is extremely impressive.
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As opposed as I am to using Nyriss' nexus feats to imply strength, Vitiate is definitely strong enough to pose serious trouble to Sidious. On the flipside Sidious wins in every regard despite this. He's just that much better, Sidious was always more powerful than anyone that used the Dark Side.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Then why don't every dark sider constantly use it before combat to defeat their enemies that they normally can't? Like Malgus against the protags or Darth Maul against Kenobi and Jinn etc. There are many examples where a force adept has the chance to prepare for their battles yet doesn't bother at all.
Not denying any of that.
How so? We know how powerful Meetra and Scourge are and so we know how powerful Nyriss is too which of course allows us to understand how freaking powerful Vitiate is based on his FLS domination of Revan.
We're not comparing their peak versions though. Besides, I'm not questioning Sidious' superiority in this regard.
You're dealing with a mass franchise characterized with hilarious inconsistency, no different from the comic book world {though not quite as bad}. The fact of the matter is, though, disproportionate feats from Force users via prep/nexus is nothing new.
Then why bring it up?
Because as powerful as that is, that's still not reflective of a super-prodigy who drained 8 thousand Sith Lords and studied the dark side for more than a millennium.
No, but appealing to Vitiate's prodigious abilities vis a vis Sidious is moot when Sidious is demonstrably the superior prodigy.
And so unless the person is stated to have prep to boost his power, I don't think its fair to assume they had prep or at least needed it immensely as a certainty like its proven by a canon source.
Because YOLO.
No, I brought it up to explain how insanely impressive Vitiate's background is but as you have stated below, its kinda too much for any sith which is why I questioned Sidious' superiority over him a couple months ago in the first place. I guess Sidious is simply that good which is a huge turn on for me btw.
Fair enough.
Which is what I said. Read above to see why I mentioned Vitiate's background.
It's absolutely fair to assume as much when there is no evidence to suggest that the character could replicate the results at whim and on neutral ground or when the feat itself is wildly inconsistent with the character's other feats.
That's been the default position by any reasonable debater in these parts for years and it doesn't matter what character's involved. I apply the same exacting standards for Sidious.
My position is much more reasonable than the opposite. And it's universally applied.
I'm pleased. His Imperial Majesty's dominance is indeed a natural aphrodisiac.
My point is that, when comparing Sidious to Vitiate, it's a moot point to reference Vitiate's background as a prodigy. He is indeed. But Sidious is demonstrably more so, achieving comparable feats and accolades at the very least without having to leech the power of thousands of Sith Lords and studying the Force for a fraction of the time.