Exactly, which is why ki can break Tsukuyomi in a form setting. Lol
We don't have any reason to assume it couldn't, considering Tsukuyomi HAS been broken before, by characters with power on par with, or greater than that of, the person casting it.
Kakashi couldn't break it because he was simply weaker than Itachi.
If Itachi cast Tsukuyomi on Hashirama though, it presumably would do nothing. Same applies to someone with the raw energy to blow up a ****ing planet, let alone a universe.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
How is that covered under energy equivalence? Chakra has never broken Tsukuyomi either, only other doujutsu users have. Energy equivalence isn't hax equivalence.
You don't have any proof of this. Unlike Bleach, it's not been established to work this way in Naruto.
Sasuke broke out of it, and didn't even have mangekyo sharingan. That's the point- the only time we've seen someone break out of Tsukuyomi, it had nothing to do with doujutsu, and everything to do with being STRONG enough to do so. Sure Itachi wasn't going all out, but Sasuke still managed to overpower it with his sheer chakra, IIRC. That's why Zetsu even commented, "He broke through it without having the Mangekyo, because the difference in their strength. Just like a master with a pebble who beats a novice with a shuriken. A weapon is only as strong or weak as its user.".
So yeah, I can prove it- as I just did. It's the only time we've seen it happen that way, but it doesn't mean it can't happen. It's not only NOT been established that you can't break Tsukuyomi with chakra- it's in fact been CONTRADICTED, which suggests you CAN.
I realize it's not a lot of evidence, but its more than you have to make the claim that only doujutsu can break Tsukuyomi. Like I pointed out also, unless you're claiming that Itachi could beat Hashirama in sage mode with Tsukuyomi, you don't really have an argument here.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Not what's indicated by the text. Since your memory seems to be very selective, allow me to remind you of the full quote.
White Zetsu:What?! Someone who only has ordinary sharingan isn't supposed to be able to win against the mangekyo!
Black Zetsu:The ordinary sharingan is still a weapon. And a weapon can be either strong or weak depending on the ability of the person wielding it. Someone carrying shuriken might still lose to pebbles thrown by an adept. So the point is their variance in strength... that Sasuke's talent has exceeded Itachi's imagination.
The sharingan is the pebble. The mangekyo is the shuriken. Sasuke was able to break the tsukuyomi because he is more adept with the sharingan than Itachi is with the mangekyo. Supposedly. I think it's likely that Itachi allowed it to happen, but that's not relevant to the discussion at hand, so I digress.
So no...
...you have not proven that the tsukuyomi can be broken with chakra alone. You have proven that it can be broken with the sharingan, provided that the sharingan user is sufficiently more adept than the mangekyo user. In fact, this is something that has been established as early as Itachi's first appearance: Kakashi volunteered to try to combat the tsukuyomi with his own sharingan, because he knew of no other way to do so.
The fact of the matter is that the evidence is insufficient. There is no rule establishing that genjutsu cannot be used to defeat a stronger opponent, and there is no reason to think the tsukuyomi couldn't beat Hashirama. You just feel personally, baselessly, that it shouldn't be able to.
Of course, that doesn't mean I think Itachi would beat Hashirama. The Senju are veterans when it comes to fighting the Uchiha, just like Guy. In the first place, Hashirama wouldn't make a rookie mistake like looking Itachi in the eyes, that's my thought on the matter.
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Jul 3rd, 2022 at 10:09 PM
I literally read the chapter before commenting, my memory isn't being selective, lmao. You literally just proved my point.
Zetsu(black) suggested that with higher strength, you can overpower the Tsukuyomi. We can agree to that, right? However, this CAN'T apply to ALL mangekyo. For example, a normal sharingan can't prevent/stop kamui, regardless of ones strength- right? So it would mean that Tsukuyomi is unique, in that it's a genjutsu- and thusly can be stopped with overwhelming chakra/energy, right?
So let's look at the evidence:
1. Genjutsu can GENERALLY be broken, with intense chakra/energy disruption. We see that when Naruto tried to break Itachi's genjutsu before, and had a flashback to Jiraiya explaining this. It can ALSO be done by ones own allies. The reason Tsukuyomi is immune to allies doing this, is because it can manipulate time, so it only takes an instant to complete.
2. Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi by BEING STRONGER THAN ITACHI, with JUST a regular sharingan. This proves that someone with a weaker sharingan can beat someone with an evolved one, just by being stronger- in a straight up battle of genjutsu. Which THEN implies that if one was MUCH stronger, they might not need sharingan at all.
3. No one has EVER stated that it's impossible to break out of Tsukuyomi without having sharingan of your own.
So- to summarize, we have evidence that it CAN be broken with sheer energy dominance, and no evidence to suggest that it can't.
What are you missing here?
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Strength and aptitude aren't the same thing, so not necessarily.
No, ocular genjutsu is a power that the normal sharingan possesses, whereas space-time ninjutsu is not. So that would be a false equivalence.
The sharingan also has no bearing on someone's ability to disrupt their own chakra, so your assertion that Sasuke broke the tsukuyomi through that mechanism doesn't hold up to scrutiny either.
This premise was technically true, but in your conclusion you swapped these terms with "energy dominance." So substituting that here, you're actually just begging the question. In the first place, the point of contention was whether or not energy dominance amounts to chakra disruption.
Genjutsu manipulates the flow of the target's own chakra, so I see no reason to think the chakra necessary to disrupt it wouldn't be proportional to the chakra in their body. If it were simply a question of having powerful chakra, Naruto wouldn't need to be taught an anti-genjutsu technique in the first place. Not that any of that matters, given that this tactic hasn't ever worked against the tsukuyomi anyways.
That isn't implied at all. You're just saying so, and hoping it sticks.
Here's a counterexample: Two people are playing a game. The first player uses a controller, and thus has an advantage over the second player, who uses a keyboard. If the second player is better than the first by a wide enough margin, it's still possible for him to win the game. That's a gap skill can bridge. That does not imply, however, that it would still be possible for the second player to win the game if you take away his keyboard. That's a gap skill can't bridge.
Sure they have. Two characters said so the very first time it appeared:
Not even close. Nothing you've said even tethers energy dominance to genjutsu, let alone the tsukuyomi.
Sure there is. It's pretty well-established that any mangekyou user can control Kurama with genjutsu, be it Obito, Itachi, or even Fugaku. His energy dominance over them is enormous, yet he remains susceptible. Meanwhile Kakashi, who doesn't even have 1% of the chakra Kurama does, can resist that same genjutsu (read: not tsukuyomi) by using his sharingan.
Did you forget that Kurama has more chakra than Hashirama, or what?
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Jul 20th, 2022 at 06:08 AM
2. That's true, but what you just said immediately after isn't. Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi was stated to be based on his strength, rather than his usage of the sharingan. Sure it probably helped, but you can't say definitively to what degree- so all we have to go on is that Zetsu stated his "strength" broke the Tsukuyomi, while using a regular sharingan. Nothing in his statement or even the context points to his breaking of Tsukuyomi being contingent on having/using sharingan at all, above using his sheer strength/genjutsu aptitude. You're not mentioning the fact that genjutsu can also be broken by non-Uchiha, which is inherently misleading since you're leaving that bit of info out to make the assumption that Tsukuyomi or sharingan genjutsu in general is something that can't be broken without another sharingan.
3. Okay so I think you're misunderstanding my point here- I'm not saying that just having "energy dominance" would make one passively immune to genjutsu of someone weaker. I'm saying that having energy dominance of the caster of a genjutsu is something that has clearly been shown capable of overpowering the chakra-flow manipulation of genjutsu, thus breaking it. And as far as we've seen, sharingan genjutsu and even Tsukuyomi work in the same way.
As far as your point of energy dominance =/= chakra disruption, I'd make the point that this is not what I'm claiming. I think we've seen chakra disruption as something that happens generally when a character "powers up". Just like when Naruto flares his chakra, or something equivalent. Supposedly, it just wasn't enough to break Itachi's basic genjustu(even from a 30% clone lol), which I simply chalk up to PIS. I personally don't think Itachi should have been able to control/manipulate any aspect whatsoever, of Naruto's chakra- even at that point. I think Kishimoto was just trying to hype up the danger presented by Itachi- which unintentionally shit on Naruto and Jiraiya(Jiraiya being the person who specifically taught Naruto how to gather his chakra, thus combating genjutsu with Itachi particularly in mind). I simply don't think Jiraiya would've wasted his time showing Naruto how to gather his chakra(which is what he did), to combat a genjutsu that it wouldn't have done anything against in the first place. I think Itachi was just "too strong" at that point, which I also think is still BS. Just seems inconsistent to me.
4. That is literally EXACTLY what is implied, and even outright stated by Zetsu- as YOU pointed out. Your analogy is fallacious, because sharingan is not REQUIRED to combat genjutsu- but a gaming controller of SOME form, i.e. the keyboard, IS REQUIRED to play. Instead, taking away that persons sharingan would be like giving them a more limited keyboard, in which case they could STILL win, if they're skilled enough. THAT'S what was implied, lol. You just made a false equivalency too, because you conflated not having sharingan to not being able to combat genjutsu.
5. Okay, but there was also a lot of other stuff that Kakashi said during that fight that turned out to be debunked literally pages later when Guy showed up, and scared them off. That was also like damn near the beginning of the series, and a lot of stuff since then was retconned/changed. If the only evidence is Kakashi stating that only another sharingan user can fight Itachi, back in part 1 where Guy showed up and literally proved it wrong with a sentence, then it's pretty weak evidence. They were hyping it up, that's all, lol. We only see Tsukuyomi used on sharingan users anyways, throughout the entire series, right? I can't even remember a single time when it was used on a non-sharingan user. So you can't prove that claim in the first place.
6. Jiraiya said to Naruto, "While you're caught, your chakra is... under your opponents control. If you can break that control, and disturb the chakra flow... you can break the genjutsu.". Now just before this, he mentioned you should try to stop the flow of chakra- but Naruto flared his chakra instead, enough to become visible. Itachi even commented that it was "improved... but simply not enough". That implies that had Naruto been able to flare off MORE, it would've been enough. Right? Or am I tripping?
7. Jesus, lots of text here. Anyways, the 9 tails point is pretty solid, not gonna lie. The only problem is that it's too inconsistent, and there are too many variables. Obito also had hashirama cells when he did that, which are inherently a plot device. Also, when tf did Itachi or Fugaku control the 9 tails? I was under the impression that only Madara and Obito had done that. In fact, wasn't it explicitly stated that Madara was the "only one" who could have done that, by Minato? Which is why he assumed it was literally Madara, instead of just any old random Uchiha?
Last but not least, since when did 9 tails have more chakra than Hashirama? Like, sage mode Hashirama??? I don't know about that, lol. Hell, even Madara said his Perfect Susano'o was the level of a biju(granted, 9 tails is the strongest biju, but not by so much that the others are irrelevant). And Hashirama had LOADS more chakra than Madara ever did. Did you see the bhudda statue thing? Lol, that thing was like the size of a country.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
I'm not even saying you're definitively wrong, I'm just pointing out that you're not really definitively right either. So you can't really make that claim when there is evidence that suggests otherwise.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
My claim is that there is no such evidence, so there's not really any ambiguity to speak of.
If you're talking about Asumaforth3win's claim that genjutsu would work on saiyans, then yes, that's not definitively right. Even if I could prove that Hashirama is susceptible, I can't know for sure that the saiyans are too.
Strength is also an ambiguous term. Black Zetsu's analogy described an "adept" with a stone and a "novice" with a shuriken. That doesn't scream energy dominance to me.
Nay, Sasuke broke the tsukuyomi because his sharingan was stronger than Itachi's. It was stronger despite not being a mangekyou, because of Sasuke's superiority as a user. Let me emphasize again what was said:
Black Zetsu:The ordinary sharingan is still a weapon. And a weapon[sharingan] can be either strong or weak depending on the ability of the person wielding it.
It wasn't debunked. Guy did not break the tsukukyomi without sharingan, he circumvented it by not making eye contact in the first place.
This isn't a valid argument. If your claim is that there was a retcon, then the burden is on you to provide proof, and it doesn't exist. Which brings us to our next point.
This is precisely the problem. It can't possibly have been retconned, because tsukukyomi has only ever been used on Kakashi and Sasuke. Well, technically Madara used it on the entire planet, but that doesn't help my case since nobody had energy dominance over Madara. Though it's worth noting that at that time as well, team 7 was saved by Sasuke's sharingan.
That being said, unfortunately for you, I don't need any additional proof. The original statement has never been contradicted, so there's no problem with defaulting to it.
Maybe, but that interpretation has some problems. Like I said before, if it were that simple, it would not be necessary to learn a technique for breaking genjutsu. Moreover, power-types like Naruto would always be the least susceptible to genjutsu if that were the rule, which empirically doesn't seem to be the case. If anything, it's the chakra control-types like Sakura who were shown to have a knack for it early on.
An understandable position, but you should understand that "PIS" and "evidence from early in the series doesn't count" aren't strong legs for your argument to stand on.
When Itachi said Naruto had improved, do you think he just meant his chakra? I took that as Itachi commending Naruto for learning a genjutsu countermeasure, but he wasn't good enough at it, and was caught anyways.
Like you said above, if chakra levels are the determining factor, Naruto really should have been able to escape the finger-genjutsu of a 30% Itachi.
It was never said that Jiraiya was teaching Naruto to counter the sharingan specifically. Naruto's strategy going into the fight with Itachi was to avoid eye contact, like everybody else.
Is that right? Then show me where Zetsu says, "if one was MUCH stronger, they might not need sharingan at all," and I will concede.
You're begging the question again. The point of contention was whether or not the sharingan is necessary to combat the mangekyo sharingan. You have not provided any evidence that it isn't, you have only claimed as much. I've provided a quote indicating that it is. As it stands, my analogy is valid.
First off, that's not what a false equivalence is. Second, you're missing the big picture.
The point of the counterexample was not to present it as a more correct interpretation, it was to expose the flaw in your logic. Your argument essentially boils down to:
If A, then B. > A. > Therefore, B. This is structurally sound, but only if the premise that "If A, then B" is necessarily true. I was able to provide an example where it would not be true, and so unless that example is provably invalid, your argument doesn't prove your conclusion. All we can conclude is that a stronger sharingan user can overcome a weaker mangekyou user. Nothing more, and nothing less. The evidence for the rest just isn't there.
When Itachi tells Sasuke that the mangekyou is blinding him, Sasuke muses that "blindness is the price for the power to control the nine tails." I'm confident this has been repeated on other occasions, as well.
As for Fugaku, it's from the Itachi LN. Because the mangekyou is known to be able to control the nine tails, some members of the Uchiha clan petitioned Fugaku to do so to overthrow Konoha. This was before Fugaku decided to do the coup, so he refused. After the nine tails incident, Fugaku was suspected as the perpetrator for the same reason.
That's not quite right, there's a number of things that made him think so. Here's the full quote:
Minato:He was able to get past the Anbu under the Third's direct control, and penetrate the top-secret barrier. He knew that the nine tails' seal would be weakened during childbirth... not only that, but he knew how to break the seal, and tame the nine tails. And he was able to get through the barrier around Konoha... there's only one ninja I know of... who could do all that.
I will acknowledge, however, that Jiraiya implied earlier on that there was nobody alive who could have pulled off the nine tails' incident. That's a decent counterpoint to Fugaku being capable, but then it's just Jiraya's word against everyone else's.
Perhaps Fugaku having a mangekyou should be considered a retcon. Mangekyou users were so rare that Madara and Izuna were rumored to have been the first in history, so it's plausible for there not to have been any others since Madara's time. Shisui and Itachi hadn't awakened theirs yet, after all.
When Hashirama sees how Naruto has spread chakra across the allied shinobi forces, he marvels that Naruto must have almost as much chakra as himself. This was back when Naruto only had Kurama's yang half, so it stands to reason that the full Kurama had more chakra than Hashirama. Even if you argue that he's not taking sage mode into account, they still ought to be in the same ballpark. If Kurama can't resist the mangekyou via energy dominance, Hashirama shouldn't be able to either.
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Jul 22nd, 2022 at 12:28 AM
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