Seeing how basically an infinite number of them was required to kill the Living Tribunal, a finite number of them losing doesn't seem strange at all. We also don't know how many of them it took to kill the Celestials and the Abstracts.
Just hope BeyonderGod doesn't pull the "Pre-Retcon Beyonder was a Beyonder Child Unit" statement
About Pre Retcon Beyonder being at the top despite being basically equal or weaker than HOTU Thanos, this was a spite thread from the very start. He didn't expect anything to beat his avatar, after all.
I read about that a little bit. This place also forced me to read on the Infinity Gauntlet.
As for the spite, I couldnt just let that go unchallenged. Too bad about the anime stipulation, though.
I disagree with this part though. If you can show some proof that it isnt what it claims, like I have done with Beyonder omniscience, then you might have something. As it stands now, it was intended to be omnipotent and omniscient and has done nothing to violate that.
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Last edited by LLLLLink on Apr 5th, 2015 at 06:00 PM
Three Beyonders was shown actively fighting the LT, so where do you get the infinite number from? A finite number being the guys getting their backsides handed to them by Thor and Hyperion I assume? I agree that we don't know, hence my comment that we shouldn't use them until we have a better understanding of what happened
If it was "japanese media" instead of just anime, we could have quite a few things that could pose a threat to most of this team. Too bad it isn't. Come on OP, be honest and change it!
You've made the omnipotence claim, you have to prove it. This is my debating stance. Omnipotence is a very extraordinary claim, one that cannot be proven with feats and one certainly can't be proven by claims by worshippers or people in setting, who are biased by principle. But since you asked, the Link to the Past scan from earlier is my proof. If something has a counter, then it's not omnipotent. End of the story.
This discussion is useless, though.
The flashy art shows three Beyonders. The narration says that there is a Beyonder in each universe (of which there are an infinite number), and that all of them banded together to go and kill the Living Tribunal, and eventually managed to. The art is just a representation, while the text is describing the events as they should be. It does make more sense, also.
Last edited by trexalfa on Apr 5th, 2015 at 06:19 PM
It just counters the effects. Kind of like Dr. Strange against the Infinity Gauntlet.
Now remember, if you take that stance you must apply it to ALL the characters.
Countering the effects of an omnipotent artifact is different than doing so to something it's not. Also, care refreshing my memory on how Strange countered the Infinity Gauntlet?
While I agree that it makes alot more sense, it's a outright contradiction to what we have been shown on panel, I also highly doubt that it toke just one Beyonder to kill all the Celestials, but that is what is shown, and hence we go with that.
But the narration is what is truly meant to tell the story. The art in those for me was that, just flashy art. Going only with what's shown and ignoring the narration is, ultimately, stripping something of its context, which leads to completely flawed assumptions about the story and ends affecting the debate. That's my opinion anyway.
And, what were they thinking? The art should be a supplement to the story, not a medium contradicting it!
Iirc, wasnt he able to escape its destructive power by tricks like the eye of agamotto, pocket dimensions, etc? I just seem to recall him standing up to it even though he is not close to omnipotent. Dr Strange is so cool.
And the art is meant to illustrate that story. The problem is also that, the narration says "the Multiverse formed before them" (or something like that) and it formed as the LT infront of three beyonders. So both viewpoints can be used, with the difference that the three beyonders is supported by the art, the infinite beyonders isn't. And I completely agree btw. That the art should support the narration unfortunately that is not often the case.
The Infinity Gauntlet was not an omnipotent artifact. It was able to stick the finger to Abstracts and defeat them easily, and also was able to no sell the Ultimate Nullifier. The Living Tribunal still was above it. The Heart of the Universe was also an explicitly superior power-up.
Omnipotence ultimately gives something the ability of "its power cannot be countered by anything". A non omnipotent artifact does not have this property.
I think that thing about the multiverse forming before them is just flowery prose. It was refering to the Living Tribunal anyway. Who is referenced by Eternity's attributes. Why is this new series such a **** up in many ways? Also, the evidence supporting the infinite Beyonders thing is more abundant. Following your own line of reasoning, we get "the infinite Beyonders is supported by the story, the three Beyonders aren't". And another point of evidence is common sense, another one is powerscalling. "Child Unit" Beyonder was a Cosmic Cube level being, how the hell are three "Adult Units" (who shouldn't be that superior) beating something that can hold megaverses in his hands? How are Thor and Hyperion beating even one of them?
Last edited by trexalfa on Apr 5th, 2015 at 06:43 PM
Even though the infinity gauntlet was able to cage all of the Celestials, even TOAA (mirror face)? How could it counter the power of these 'omnipotent beings'?
Because the Celestials aren't omnipotent. They are pretty much below the Abstracts, but they are above the Cosmic Cube Beings. TOAA, the Celestial, is the leader of the Celestial Fourth Host. He's not God.
It's more like a retcon. It's not really a **** up, the build up has been really long and the story has been surprising, no one had guessed that it was the Beyonders that was attacking and destroying universes. It's supported by narration (as I said) but so is the three beyonders. All I'm saying is hold the horses, until we actually has a more clear view of what happened. Those Child units are no pushovers, they have merged four universes on top of each other, and repaired the omniverse and made Thanos replace Eternity. The Cubes, while Child units are extremely power. We have always known that the Beyonders were powerful, as the units contained just a small amount of their power, the new thing is that they apparently can overtake the LT. And the response is easy CIS/PIS. Digi made a really good comment about it. I'll see if I can find it.
While we are on the subject, can someone show me some evidence where TOAA the Celestial is NOT the same as TOAA (Stan)?
Like, I need a quote or something.
Yeah, we could wait more. I'm just making the most likely picture out of all the evidence we currently have, which is basically the best picture of it I can create. Those feats you mentioned, I guess you were talking about the "Adult" Units? The Child Units, or Cosmic Cubes, are easily universe busters. Really powerful, but a mook Celestial can dish out far more power than they can.
I actually don't know where in the comics I could find it. I can tell you that they have different pages in the official Marvel page, and are listed as two different characters.
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