You said it yourself, the only area in which we have common ground is that we respect the TOR era. There's no consensus or coordinated efforts here. I'm not in a faction with Legend, Neb or Ant just because I agree with them on certain matters (TOR, Bane, Revan). In fact you know that I frequently clash violently with their opinions on them. Just like PT supporters clash over Maul, the Council etc.
@CT, the problem I have with Bane's feat with the 20 other Sith is that whenever Force Users focus their powers into something it becomes exponentially much greater than their individual powers. I rank Bane with Vader and the like because of him destroying the Temple of Lehon, which has withstood Turbolaser firepower in the past. Also here's an updated version of my top 20 list, although like I said I should probably start making tiers cause I feel many people like the DC members and Dark Jedi exiles should be mentioned as well:
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
I find this interestsing. Like, I understand that a lot of people have Nihilus above Caedus, but generically when it comes to him people would either put him above Plagueis as well, or set him lower than both tbh. No real point to this, moving on.
I can't say I don't approve of these three being next after the big 5.
Fair enough, though I'd argue that there are more worthy candidates for the spot. Just an obvious example, Darth Tenebrous; one of the last, and by extension the strongest, of Bane's lineage. Still, omoshiroi to see someone who has Zannah>Bane.
He's tough~
Always interesting to see how people think the protags stack up to similar famous Sith; obviously favorably, in this case.
Seems a bit low, but at least he's here.
Ew.
This list has a severe lack of Muur. Unforgivable.
Malgus, Traya, Malak, Maul, Dooku, and Nox should all be above Bane. Realistically, he should be like 15 or something. There are also tons of featless Sith/weaklings on the list like Zannah and Sadow
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
That's pretty weak as far as assumptions go. Narrative of the ritual in both the comic and novel was more or less espoused as just stuffing power of the remaining brotherhood into Bane, no exponential power increase was inferred.
Without an actual quote of exposition saying the union of power between force users leads to a resonance of exponential power?
Your stance really has no actual grounds, especially given you already ignore conservation of energy in your next sentence with the Temple and Turbolasers.
Given appealing to CoE is the only justification I'm aware of that would let you draw the conclusion that force users together = greater than sum of parts.
Was it specifically stated to be hit in the past?
I know the Rakata civil war basically glassed Lehon, I just never searched for specifics.
I can understand why you'd put Vader above him off this though. Starkiller's lightning has feats greater than most turbolaser fire anyway.
Had you been using the ritual, it'd be groundless to powerscale Vader off Bane given he's nothing more than a placeholder after Mustafar. Same reason why Dooku and Maul don't benefit, they weren't selected with the tenants of Rule of Two being kept in mind like Anakin was prior to Mustafar.
Would be different if official word quantified Bane in terms of Sidious like they did Vader and Luke, but that power level bullshit only ever extended as far as them, thus kind of worthless outside of being cool to know.
That is, of course, unless you're willing to support continent level farmer with shotgun in dragon ball :maybe
Linear power level scales are bullshit either way :lmao
Alright
Between what I know of him, Kun and Caedus, I tend to find there's not enough quantifiable difference between the three between accolades and feats to determine who's above who in order for sure :hmm
Really do feel he's is overrated as hell
He can absorb a lot of energy, the energy unleashed while doing so sufficient to reduce a planet's surface to ashes.
Continental really isn't all that special if you understand how to play connect the dots
He's high tier, but I'd hardly call him top 5 when so many matches with him can easily become a quick draw.
Going to need to explain this to me :hmm
I haven't read Legacy or FotJ, so I'm not too familiar with Krayt.
Rule of Two really does make this easy to grasp.
They had their strengths and weaknesses, but raw power kind of needs to be comparable for the system to function as Bane wanted it too.
Though Tenebrous should be above Zannah as far as fleshed out Rule of Two with actual characters go.
Why? :hmm
Malgus has nice feats however, maybe it's due to my limited knowledge of the game, but I can't think of any real dots to play with that places him that high
Or is this just by virtue of the Strike Team that was required to put him down? :hmm
We know for a fact Nadd put Sadow down, so not sure why Sadow would place above Nadd :hmm
Not that I'd put them on this list
Or Traya really, but that's mostly due to lacking any major powerscaling outside of being stronger than Surik.
Dooku's one of those characters that has great accolades, but nothing specific enough to actually determine who or what he powerscales to without lowballing his ass
He just gives me a headache in general.
Sort of figure Malak's placed too low, but I can understand why you don't place him higher too.
Maul has Dooku's issue with me too, barring the actual accolades Dooku has. Son of Dathomir sort of helped him out a bit though with the final Talzin vs Sidious force battle.
Muur's not going to make it if Pall's not on the list
Though we know little about him, him holding the title of Dark Lord at his peak sort of places Pall above Muur anyway
That said, Muur having enough power to convince Vader to contemplate using his power combined with his own to try taking Sidious down is interesting, given his former peak in power had him fairly hesitant of striking out at Sidious at all.
Last edited by ChaosTheory123 on Feb 15th, 2015 at 03:37 AM
Malak became a Dark Lord of the Sith in a highly competitive era actually; when Malak's time came to prove his mettle and ability to lead a Sith Empire after Revan's fall, he was absolutely successful.
On Leviathan cruiser, when Revan, Bastilla Shan and Carth Onasi confronted Malak, they all failed to defeat him.
But Malak had greater plans; he began to harness the power of Star Forge to control it and fuel his own. Keep in mind that Star Forge is known to break individuals who are not strong enough to control it.
So I don't get the Malak sucks mentality at all. BioWare never projected Malak as a weak-sauce. Mr. Miller's ill-planned presentation of Malak in the comics did some damage which he is not proud of by the way. However, we can safely assume that Malak substantially grew in power with passage of time as he began to hone his talents in both martial aspects and dark side.
You know the name? Malak is the strongest of us, and the strongest always rules. (Yuthura Ban)
"When Revan fell we had hoped the Sith threat was ended. But Malak quickly assumed Revan's role, and has embraced the dark side power as fully as his old master ever did. Now Malak leads the Sith armada against the Republic. Hate and vengeance for his master's death draw Malak ever further down the path of the dark side, fueling his powers until they surpass those of his old master." (Vandar Tokare)
The ruling Dark Lord of the Sith is a master of the Dark Side of the Force. (KoTOR-CG)
In Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide, Malak is identified as a powerful Force-user and his dueling stats are comparable to that of Exar Kun at the time of his reign as a Dark Lord of the Sith.
Greatest issue of TOR timeline is lack of ample literature on its characters. Star Wars authors are to blame.
Nonetheless, BioWare made good effort in creating useful literature for SWTOR. It the literature and lore that gives us perspective of power of characters of TOR timeline.
I am not asserting that Vitiate's DC purge feat is a vague one or not a good example to cite. In-fact, it is arguably the greatest display of offensive power in single combat in the mythos thus far. Emperor is even promoted as the most powerful Force-user in galactic history in official literature, and the DC purge feat lends credibility to this promotion.
As for Revan's confrontation with an Imperial Strike Team, its details are vague at the moment. We don't know exactly who confronted Revan, we can only speculate about the Imperial agents sent to confront Revan on the Foundry. However, we can safely assume that those Imperial agents were really powerful and skilled and forced Revan to teleport from the Foundry.
Unfortunately, you cannot prove that Revan ever stomped Nox with his powers.
As for Revan growing in power after the events of Revan, this is also a speculation. SWTOR does not promotes Revan being at his prime in the era of Satele Shan, it would be a stretch to assume that Revan is at his prime after enduring 300 years of torture and internally fractured as a consequence.
In-fact, Revan's best performance is against Emperor Vitiate in which the Jedi Master managed to control himself while sent packing across the hall, resisted Emperor's powers for a while and momentarily overwhelmed Emperor on two occasions with his actions. Emperor Vitiate had never been pressed to this extent in history by any foe and this confrontation forced him to re-evaluate his defensive measures and strategies. It was after this confrontation that Emperor created Voices, Children, and Emperor's Wrath to increase his safeguard and expand his reach on galactic scale to observe his enemies and destroy them when they would plot against him.
Emperor is the most powerful Force-user in the galactic history. However, Nox seems to be catching-up with the giants of his era his own strategy for binding powerful ghosts to himself to fuel his power.
Nox's growth in power by virtue of his sorcery-oriented techniques is so fast that he dismissed a supremely powerful rival in a span of 3 years. The rival spend decades in honing his talents in the dark side and secure a position in the Dark Council, while Nox accomplished all this in a span of 3 years.
Never in the history before, a Sith have ascended to Dark Council in a span of just 3 years.
Only time will tell.
Though Emperor Vitiate is stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side in official literature so it is possible that he have an answer for a threat like Nox. But only Emperor Vitiate have this luxury at the moment.
I expected better argument from you at-least.
What exactly is Nox's prime? Nox grows in power by virtue of his sorcery-oriented techniques and actions, we do not have a measure of his so-called "prime" as a consequence.
"The powerful Darth Thanaton has made it clear he wants you dead. You've learned a ritual that will allow you to defend yourself against him - but you must steal the power of Sith apparitions to use it. The apparition on Taris is guarded by Jedi. Elios Maliss has suggested that you may be able to corrupt one of their Padawans - Ashara Zavros - into taking you to the ghost - who is also her ancient ancestor."
Taken from SWTOR
Sith Sorcery and Sciences are a gateway to levels of power which mortals can never hope to attain with their natural potential; this is the message that TOR era content and Darth Plagueis have conveyed. As an example, Emperor Vitiate was becoming like the Celestials by virtue of his sorcery-oriented actions.
Don't get me wrong, Jadus have impressive Force abilities and would be capable of defeating many foes. However, in contrast, Nox have actual history of defeating powerful foes including one of the strongest Dark Council members to have ever existed in history.
Malgus became so powerful that even Sidious greatly admired him after learning about his history and command of the dark side, knowledge that proved beneficial to Sidious himself. However, Sidious was still open-minded enough to regard Malgus as "among" the best of the Emperor's followers. It is likely that Sidious had some idea of other powerhouses that co-existed with Malgus (excluding Emperor Vitiate).
Your evaluation of Nox is without basis unfortunately.
You are among the few sensible Star Wars fans left in this forum who don't troll and ridicule opposition, rather debate respectfully and I respect you. However, this argument, in particular, could not stop me from rolling my eyes.
Coming back to the point:-
Every Sith ghost is a powerful manifestation of the Force with the potential to influence materialistic realm, possess, harm or break mortal individuals.
Sith ghosts that resided inside the Dark Temple had broken and killed many trespassers in history. Only few managed to resist their influence and power; I am aware of Emperor Vitiate and Nox.
Nox binded the ghosts of Ergast and Andru from the Dark Temple. Ergast, in particular, gave Nox significant trouble and proved to be very difficult to properly possess and control.
Later on, Nox possessed the ghosts of Kalatosh Zavros and Horak-mul. The former was the ghost of a Jedi Master so it did not present much threat but the latter was a ghost of a powerful Sith Lord who became the right-hand of Ludo Kressh. Horak-mul was so strong that it took 5 elite assassins to subdue him in an ambush. Even in ghost form, Horak-mul proved to be very dangerous, with history of possessing and breaking many individuals. In-fact, Horak-mul allowed himself to be possessed after Nox completed a task for him.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Feb 15th, 2015 at 09:09 AM
Sith ghosts are powerful in their own right but they actually lack the raw power of super-strong mortals.
Exar Kun, in ghost form, sensed great strength in Luke and felt the need of a strong host to tackle him. Kyp Durron proved to be a suitable host for the task.
Kyp's raw power coupled with Kun's command of the dark side, proved to be too much for Luke to handle. However, you are overreaching by assuming that Exar Kun dwarfed other Sith ghosts in power by virtue of being Exar Kun.
Also, do keep in mind that Exar Kun did not even dared to interfere in the matters of Revan and Emperor Vitiate on Yavin IV. The latter even engulfed the entire planet with his power, consuming many in the process to fuel his return. This feat alone dictates profound difference in the power of Emperor Vitiate and Exar Kun, even in spirit forms.
Nox binded several Sith ghosts to him (including some of the most dangerous ones as revealed above) and such magnitude of power would prove fatal to a mortal without a solution; Nox found the solution from Rakatan technology and magic which transformed him into an immortal being capable of channeling the power of multiple ghosts to manipulate the external environment without danger.
They were in Korriban.
Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side contains information about this event.
So according to you, many have the raw power to challenge "everybody" in the mythos? Don't you think that you are overreaching here?
Really?
Just like them, Nox have history of defeating super-strong opponents and pwning Strike Teams of Jedi and Sith.
How will Sidious tackle Nox's immortality?
Also, Nox harnesses power of multiple ghosts to influence external environment, he have adequate raw power to handle even Sidious.
Its ironic that I am educating someone about lore-based ground realities of a character to someone who claims to have played Sith Inquisitor story 3 times. Really ironic, my friend.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
It kinda makes sense actually. Mastery over the force is a more important factor than raw power when facing abominations like Nihilus. I doubt that Caedus would be able to defend against the drain where Plagueis' master of the dark arts could very well give him immunity or a chance to defend against it. Caedus vs Plagueis is a fight I can't pick a side though.
This is where making tiers become a more preferable way of categorizing characters than making lists.
I know Malak is a powerful sith. I didn't mean to underrate him. Mine was a comparison to make a point.
But a not that powerful version of Revan, a young jedi who is prodigious but hasn't earned much power yet and a non force user not being able to defeat Malak isn't really that impressive tbh.
No, the four imperial protags faced him. It was before their primes but nonetheless they were still powerful.
I can, buddy. Nox was backed by a huge group of people some of them considered to be amongst the best of their eras and Revan utterly sent them back via TK. It is very clear that Revan is above Nox which is nothing to be ashamed of.
He himself says he is more powerful than ever in SOR.
Nox goes out to face a character like Revan with a strike team. Vitiate can stomp Revan by himself. Nox is below Revan and Revan is below Vitiate by a margin. Nothing you said here proves otherwise.
His SOR incarnation is his prime. And in SOR, we see how he fares against Revan. I won't take any futuristic versions of the character based on your assumptions seriously.
As I said before, Jadus is pretty unknown so I won't make an argument for him.
Sidious saying that about Malgus doesn't mean anything here. Its super vague. There have been thousands of sith serving Vitiate for 1300 years. Dread Masters, Darth Marr, Wrath II, the First Son ares just some of the ones we know of. Obviously Nox is one of them but this doesn't put him above Malgus and it most certainly doesn't put him in the same tier as Vitiate and Sidious.
Everything I've said about Nox so far has been based on his showings and nothing else.
Thanks.
Sith ghosts' powers depend on how much energy they have left and it is very hard to measure their powers especially when the ghosts we are talking about are mostly unknowns. Being a spirit by itself doesn't make one uber powerful just like that. Nox' showings are enough proof since he is been backed up by 7 of them.
Like I said above, Nox' and Kyp Durron's possessed showings prove that random sith won't give you the same amount of power a great sith spirit like Kun will. Those spirits may have some impressive backstories but they're nowhere near Exar Kun.
I'll take a look, thanks.
What I meant is, you don't have to be a tier above Darth Plagueis to give Darth Sidious a decent fight.
You're referring to the SI progression video right? I'm not even sure if that's canon but even if it is, 3 random jedi from a gameplay trailer video can't be compared to the Windu's B-team and Tol Braga's strike team.
Nox isn't "immortal" lmao. Sidious has essence transfer in his pocket. His lightning is superior to him and he is faster than him. Sidious has the upper hand in every category of the force and he outclasses Nox in dueling.
You can keep making assumptions and talk about how you view the character but Nox needed help to defeat Revan where Sidious' ROTS incarnation stalemated Yoda.
No offense but that should tell you something since you haven't played it at all.
I'm probably gunna change my list tbh. Ancient Sith are becoming more OP in my eyes. Also I sent an email to Karpshyn to clear up what happened with the Bane ritual on Ruusan. I really doubt that each individual Sith has 1/20th of the power to "kill a world." And tbh I don't understand what you mean when you say I ignore COE. I know what the acronym stands for, how am I ignoring it though?
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Wasn't saying they each had the power to kill a world
That was the average they had to contribute, which as a low end, I attributed to Bane before, having previously concluded he contributed the bulk sum, but unquantifiably so.
Conservation of Energy, you selectively choose when you want to observe it or not as far as I can tell.
Feb 14th, 2015 04:58 PM
