Its a very tough match up due to the participants being two of the best debaters I've seen and the characters they chose.
I wasn't convinced by Digi trying to showcase Nico's limitations though I don't agree with Leo that she could do whatever she wanted because she died and came back with fewer limitations. I thought Digi did very few attempts to counter Nico's attacks and focused mainly on Nova. I wan't convinced that Nova was someone who can only travel fast but has slow reactions due to some questionable scans like one where Nova was infected by Phalanx. That looked like Digi trying to take some low showings as an average. Leo countered that nicely IMO.
I also didn't agree with Leo that Raven can't fly and didn't know why he focused that much on that part.
I found Digi's explanation of Dark Raven's power up somewhat lacking. It seemed that she was indeed powered up and caught Titans off guard as shown in Leo's scans.
Also Raven can phase as shown by Digi's scans but I didn't find his argument that strong about using it offensively. Leo countered it somewhat by showing Nova trapping an intangible psionic entity but its some ABC logic. Digi's retort to it was somewhat amusing as "Can it teleport?" but essentially hand waving it away.
That takes us to the trump cards of both: Speed. I think both have done a good job of showing that other can be taken down by their character. I thought that Digi was trying too hard for a speed advantage. I found the Nova's speed is better as he has speed feats against established characters. Outmaneuvering Gladiator impressed me more than outreacting alternate quicksilver. And we can't predict how fast Digi can teleport as its purely based on an amalgamation and no direct scans for it. Anyway teleportation levels the field somewhat but I think Leo still got an edge.
That takes us to Empathy vs Energy attacks. I think Digi showcased his options better here as empathy=/=telepathy. Further Nova's shields didn't look as good as Leo was trying to inform us. Further Digi showed that phasing and teleportation could make Raven pretty hard to hit. Digi got the edge on this one.
So overall it boiled down to Nova's speed and energy attacks vs Raven's ability to phase, teleport and empathy. I thought Digi undersold Mimic's offensive output and Leo didn't even use Nico after first and second post. It was somewhat disappointing. But in the end I think Leo got the edge in overall scenario and on points to points basis.
Newjak wrote on Mar 14th, 2015 03:22 PM:
Great match a lot of good back in forth.
Also well done defending and playing up your characters. By the end of this I would have booted both Nova and Raven out for breaking the low herald cap level
Now with the pleasantries out of the picture let's break this down.
Speed was something both were stressing significantly. I don't think either would have a serious advantage over the other. Maybe Mimic would have a reaction edge. Nova obviously has the travel speed advantage but I am uncertain how much of an advantage that would be with Raven's teleporting abilities. Digi did a good job of showing off her combat porting abilities.
Offensive output was something brought up multiple time throughout the debate. Nova's shields are tough but I think Digi did a good job of showing off Mimic's dangerous combat abilities. Especially showcasing his damage output against Hyperion and Terrax. Leo showed a good job of Nova's power and showcasing weaknesses of Raven's Soulself but Digi did a good job of showing off Mimic's toughness and healing. Although I would have liked to see Digi take show some instances of the soul self withstanding light or sonic based attacks.
Another big point brought up was Raven's ability to effect emotions. I think it was shown to be something that could potentially take out Nova quickly. So much so that it it led Leo to take an extremely wildcard approach to this fight. Now I do think his Psi Defenses could afford him some defense I'm not sure it is enough. Of course he did come in the express intention of letting the Worldmind assume control. This leads me to the next part of my judging.
The part about pushing the character limits. Were they successful? We will find out. So along with showing the good I need to as a judge point out the things I simply were not buying or I think were debunked enough I call into question their effectiveness.
The most obvious I think is Raven's combat phasing. I simply was not buying Raven becoming Vision-esque in this fight.
Also I need to call into question Raven's TK effectiveness. While Digi did demonstrate some TK feats separate from the Sin Family showing that showing was by far the best one he posted. Like Leo I need to call into question how much of amp she gained in that fight or how tired/exhausted the Titans were. I would have like another TK feat similar or better to showcase it wasn't the Sins upgrading her.
I also need to question the Mimic Brood durability feat. That is such a hard feat for me to take at face value. Especially, as pointed out by Leo, that it says that it is increasing in power. If it was only mentally I would like that to have been more clear in the scans for me to except.
Now I come to Worldmind autopilot. Leo did show that the Worldmind is capable of controlling Richard's body and that is a great battlefield analysis tool. That being said Digi has expressed a legitimate concern about Worldmind's single combat effectiveness compared to it working with Nova. I also would have like to see some more scans showing off autopilot mode in combat mode myself. As as now I don't know how combat effective it can be without Rich being mentally awake as well. Especially when attempting complex analysis/tactics while fighting. That being said I think the Worldmind could handle track point and shoot fighting. But I don't see or at least am not convinced that it will be able to be pull of any complicated strategies or attempts without Nova's mind helping.
What does that mean for the match though. It does mean I think that Leo's character will be safe from Raven's Empath powers but it will come at some handicap to combat I think.
I think the Worldmind was a great move to counteract Raven's abilities but it also cost him the ability to use Nico's powers as well. Even though Nova is a beast of combatant on his own I'm starting to feel the disadvantages he has are racking up.
To sum up. Nice tactics all around. Leo did a good job showing off how dangerous he is going to be especially when he won't have to worry about handicapping himself. Raven was just a bad character match up though forcing Leo take extreme measures to counter it.
krisblaze wrote on Mar 13th, 2015 09:02 PM:
Sorry for being so late, last-minute deadlines showed up.
Amalgamations: Both are fine and both were going for similar things. I feel like Leo adapted his amalgamation a bit more for this fight, but in general it seems like both had their mind set on a particular "build" before this matchup. Both were interesting and made for a great match.
Abilities: This is ridiculously similar to to Leo and Digi's godzill and he-man matchup. I feel like Leo's proven superior power ouput, but Digi has an advantage in maneuverability and has a "healing" guerilla advantage. Leo's relies on fewer and more powerful hits, where Digi relies on chipping him down, whilst healing from residual damage. This is a matter of preference, and I have no preference either way. Both are fine strategies.
Speed/Teleportation: The advantage goes to digi, though it is certainly a minor one. Leo's teleportation only happens in the "travel" sense and wouldn't help him much in combat. Digi's teleportation, while not one that tends to happen in a consecutive manner (like Nightcrawler), happens almost instantly. The teleportation happens at the flick of her wrist. After one or two ports Leo might be able to queue in on where's Digi's going to port, the energy signature or whatever, but there's just not enough evidence. I believe he would be able to, but we'd need more specific stuff from the comics for it to be a slam dunk. So I think Digi would at least get a few free teleports
I think Digi can achieve half of NS's speed by using Raven's TK to manage his metal-form, but it's not a very permanent solution. It's not something he can reliably keep up. He could alternate between the two but Digi never really made that argument stick. I think he should've relied on rapidly switching between metal and regular form, as opposed to relying on Raven's TK. Leo/Nova's speed has been tried and true. They're not high-level showings, but they're reliable and imo consistent. The WM can process things at breakneck speeds and feed that straight into the body in control. Digi's speed comes at too great a cost and Leo emphasized that. Advantage Leo.
Strategy: Like I mentioned earlier both are fine. Digi goes for the death by thousand cuts, or a one-hit phase kill, and hopes he'll recover from whatever Leo does to him. Leo goes for the most straight foward strategy I've seen in a long while. Simply become faster, smarter, more powerful. I don't buy the first, but I definitely buy the second and third. Leo didn't do too good a job at outlining his offensive strategy, but the plan involving Nico going comatose and WM assuming control was brilliant. Advantage Leo.
Digi did not sufficiently explain his ability to phase. Is this just Leo's shitposting and confusing wordplay? Maybe. But how the phuck was Digi supposed to sell that intangibility? I believe Digi moving through buildings and solid matter when travelling, but there is no way I believe him pulling things like phasing hands or legitimately harming Leo when he's phasing, not without taking a few hits fist.
In the end I believe that Leo effectively shut Digi's empathy down by having Nico go comatose, at least partially. Not as well as he thought, because I think Digi will be able to queue in on pain and such once he lands attacks, but initially Digi has little to work with in the empathy department. Leo managed to really sell Nova's energy output and offensive ability and while Digi poked holes in his shields and defensive strategies, he overestimated his Mimic scans. Alternate versions need more backing up than 616 versions do. Showing a scan of phalanxlated AU Nova does not convince me that he can somehow deal with 616 Nova, especially when said Nova was a seemingly underpowered one...
Finally, Digi will be able to move quicker but has not proven that he can confidently put down Nova before he catches up, and once Leo actually starts landing hits I think Digi will either go down immediately or fall into a pattern that Leo can dominate. So despite my initial gut-feeling, my vote goes to Leo!
Charlotte DeBel wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 07:50 AM:
So... first of all, gents. This was VEEERY close match, congratulation on good fight and all this... now let's go to business.
Charlotte's verdict
Leo pretty much opted for "removing" all the human minds and going for Worldmind control. Aka 1/2 of his total power.
Digi used his full powerset. However, this is very dubious plan on part of Leo, as he hasn't IMO shown enough proof for Nova/Worldmind taking out the truly supernatural targets. Mystical stuff =/= convenient TP.
Regarding the powers use - the staff limitations are really almost non-existent past upgrade, as the new hand of Niko can be used by her to focus spells in Staff's stead. However, this staff/Niko connection is something that can be exlpoited by Raven...given the opening.
Speed: In travel speed - edge to Leo. In dogfight speed - Nova had enough low showings, however there is no proof that Quicksilver Mimic punked in metal form was going at anything more than Mach 1, and Raven contributes nothing to speed.
Gravity vs telekinesis: Sorry, I didn't see enough TK feats for Raven to suggest that she can overpower gravity manip screws enough to compensate the sad inability of Mimic to go on high-end superspeeds (as is more than Mach 1 for definite edge). So edge to Leo here.
Phasing: Going to call a bit bullshit on this one. Nothing Digi showed constituted a proof of combat phasing. Soul self didn't even has consistent "phase through attacks" feats. Travel in energy form does not count. Again, edge to Leo...with a tweak.
Soul attack: Here Leoniko is totally defenseless sitting duck, TBH. Nova's fields don't block SUCH esoteric attacks. But the soul self has no phase through energy feats...Kyle Rayner does not counts (Raven did not overcome his shielding in this feat), and the difference between Dark Raven and usual one? Dark Raven is much more all out with TK. Since her TK involves the energies of her very soul...
So in short - speed is equal for the lack of better proof, Raven has no proof of long-range enough soulf*ck and close range is open for simple traps.
Ended up voting for Leo. Barely. For simple reason - speed is about equal, and while the soulf*ck WILL screw up Niko/Nova badly, Raven needs to go reasonably close here - and Mimic's "punk speedsters" feat is not so sufficient, nor did I see any solid proof of combat-relevant phasing. In my book the outcome was "double KO", but given that it doesn't take a MASTER strategist to press button and call it a day - Leo still wins in quickdraw. Sorry, punking featless Classic Quicksilver version does not cut it for me, and the whole babble about Worldmind insanity is rendered irrelevant due to soul attack being the only thing Leo can't counter at all and it being not so long ranged.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
always interesting hearing the views of others and what they find important. anyway, thanks all for the input. most appreciated as always. and thanks again to digi for taking part.
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