Sidious has never fought Maul with an aggressive demeanor. He goads him in a rage and then allows Maul to attack with everything he has, meanwhile Sidious isn't trying to kill him. People often argue that trying not to kill your opponent isn't holding back, but they are wrong, as you are holding back immensely and limiting your range of targets and options. In Sidious's case, he'd be limiting the speed of his saber strikes as well. It's impossible to go all out while limiting yourself to that extent.
That's just a strict saber duel, and not even mentioning Sidious holding back his force powers. Not to lowball Maul, but it's hard to judge his abilities based on his fight against Sidious when Sidious is holding back and not willing to kill. It's like judging ROTJ Luke's force defenses based on his survival against Palpatine's lightning attacks.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Except it has to do with his skills. He used his lightsaber to defeat one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. You don't get to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history having bad or only good lightsaber skills. I mean, come on. And there's not even proof about how much exactly was Vitiate weakened when the fight took place. You could argue DE Sidious was also weakened when defeated by the twins, but he's still considered a powerhouse and Luke is credited for his defeat.
Yes, HoT never dueled Malgus. But Satele did, and she's our point of reference. She admits HoT is the best warrior in the Order, an Order that includes her. She dueled Malgus and they were pretty close in terms of skill, it's only logical to assume that HoT is at least equal to Malgus saberwise, considering he's even better than Satele.
And you're incorrect. Maul is considered the 'deadliest Sith apprentice in history'. Keyword: apprentice. Not the same.
He was the greatest warrior of his time. A time that includes various powerful Jedi and Sith. That should be a good indication of his power. Maul has never come close to defeating someone of Vitiate's caliber, and he does get beat by the best Jedi and Sith of the PT.
You yourself say Ventress vs. Zallow would be a good fight. How is HoT, who is by far superior to Zallow, not going to crush Ventress...?
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Last edited by Col. Valerian on Mar 18th, 2015 at 06:55 PM
You're missing the point he didn't outduel him and Vitiate wasn't even holding a lightsaber correctly let alone lacks any showings of a lightsaber duel. Vitiate is powerful, but that has nothing to do with his lightsaber abilities in which Hero and Vitiate simply don't compare
Maul lived in the era of the most skilled Jedi in terms of feats, hardly anyone in the TOR era compares to Windu/Grievous/Kenobi in terms of lightsaber skill and Maul beat/fought evenly with those individuals. Hero's best feats aside from beating Vitiate (which has nothing to do with lightsaber skill/dueling), have all been against individuals who are mostly accolades/featless. There is no reason to believe Hero would beat Maul via skill
His accolades speak differently:
How does being an "apprentice" negate his skill?
Again feel free to post some of the TOR Jedi/Sith with comparable feats to Mace Windu, Obi Wan Kenobi, General Grievous, or Qui Gon. That list would be woefully short, and again Hero never beat Vitiate in a duel (which is exactly how he'd have to engage Maul). Given that's primarily how both of them fight and Maul has the better showings/comparable telekinetic feats, there isn't much reason to believe Hero can beat someone who reguarly engages the most Skilled of Jedi. Also yeah he did engage a high tier Sith he even drove Sidious's guard down while amped by Dark rage, that's superior to any showing of skill shown by Hero as a standalone feat.
Zallow is probably a tier beneath Ventress overall but has a strength advantage, and Ventress likewise is still more skilled than Hero/has comparabe telekinetic showings as well. She held off Anakin/Obi wan at once and forced Windu to "use all of his skills", Hero isn't beating her in a duel at all either.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Both those quotes say that Mauls "one of" the most skilled. Not "considered the most skilled Sith in history" like carthage claimed.
He was matching Shaak Ti, who even a decade before that point was considered one of the finest bladesbeasts in the order. And he defeated Vader, who is also highly skilled.
I'm pretty sure Kyp has feats such as matching other council members in duels, who have other feats of their own that indicate they're incredibly gifted swordsmen.
So.... we can't call him a bad duelist due to lack of information. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And Sidious got killed by getting chucked off a ledge by a dude with one hand. Caedus was almost killed by Ben. Grievous got murked by a gungan. Getting caught off-guard doesn't suggest incompetence.
You never did offer a rebuttal to that last semantics discussion on skill :hmm
More devil's advocate, maybe get you thinking :maybe
I'll have some fun either way.
Now, let's think, what makes Windu, Dooku, or Yoda stand out in the mythos as skilled?
Is it the ability to cut through hordes of characters? The precision to deflect a hail of blaster bolts? Maybe the power to block force lightning from close quarters?
Nah, those things are accomplished by many other people in the franchise with nigh indistinguishable indication of which display was more impressive in terms of raw feats.
They just happen to have the best accolades which distinguishes them from the rest.
Now, am I saying the TOR group is as impressive?
No
I'm saying equating accolades to "featless" (as indicated by that "/") is hilariously ****ing stupid when accolades are the most stable form of determining skill outside of A>B>C logic feats.
No, you're missing the point. HoT and Vitiate duel, they don't engage in a Force battle. That's clear primarily because when the cut-scene starts, Vitiate is on one knee and HoT is holding his lightsaber, ignited as he walks towards him. What, you think he just managed to block every Force attack Vitiate threw at him? You don't think that during the fight Vitiate didn't even ignite his lightsaber? That's not at all what the cut-scene suggests. And actually, you can see his lightsaber hanging on his belt, besides the fact that during the actual fight he wields his lightsaber...
While it is true that Maul lived in an era when the Jedi Order hosts a handful of the most powerful to ever live, it would be foolish to discredit HoT's feats because of this. We've seen Sith and Jedi during the ToR era were also quite powerful, and he is the best of all. You're also ignoring the rest of my argument. I will repeat: Satele Shan herself said HoT is the best warrior in the Order. An order that includes herself. She dueled Malgus, one of the most powerful and skilled Sith, and they were pretty close in terms of skill and combat prowess. This means that HoT is at the very least as good as Malgus, considering he's significantly superior to Satele in raw power and skill. Heck, even Vitiate himself acknowledges HoT is 'immensely powerful'.
- Thanaton's immensely powerful Storm (which btw allows him to fly)
- Nox's complete and uber domination of Thanaton
- Vitiate defeating a Sith Lord when he was 10 years old; 2nd to only Sidious in sheer raw power and Force prowess
- HoT ragdolling one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history after defeating him in an all-out battle
- Wrath crushing Darth Baras, who in turn has shown to be a master of Force lightning and formidable lightsaber combatant
- Wrath slaughtering the Beast of Marka Ragnos as a mere acolyte (Terentatek are regarded as Jedi killers, btw)
- Khem Val acknowledging Nox's power, a big accolade considering he served as Tulak Hord's assassin and speaks greatly of his previous master, while initially thinking Nox was trash compared to him
- Barsen'thor showing he can TK the shit out of indestructible metallic, massive blast doors, casually flinging a huge hunk of metal across a significant distance, defeating seriously amped Sith Lords, etc
- Nyriss turning herslef into ashes with her own lightning; outdueling and dominating Scourge and Meetra simultaneously (which serves as an indication of how powerful the most powerful of the Dark Council actually were)
I'm sure there are more feats I can list, those are just top of my head. I'm not saying these guys are as good as the best guys in the PT/OT era, but they do have impressive feats. They're not pushover/featless Sith and Jedi that haven't done squat, like you make them out to be.
He drove Sidious's guard down while Sidious was unprepared; he never expected Maul to do such a thing. Had he been prepared, it would've never happened. Vitiate was more than prepared for HoT, yet he still fell.
You don't make sense. How can you say Zallow vs. Ventress would be a good fight and say Ventress is more skilled than HoT when HoT is undoubtedly more powerful and skilled than Zallow? And if you claim Zallow is a tier beneath Ventress then it wouldn't exactly be a good fight... Yeah, well, Obi-Wan 'held off' Savage and Maul simultaneously, but he isn't regarded or seen as the superior combatant. Would you say Ventress is actually a better duelist than Anakin?
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Last edited by Col. Valerian on Mar 19th, 2015 at 08:12 AM
Mar 17th, 2015 10:24 AM
