Not doing anything isn't a feat though. If Hulk doesn't punch Thor in the face, that isn't a quantifiable feat of power.
Begging is talking. That is not his power.
His feat was erasing Death. That is a feat. Living Tribunal could have stated that Beyonder could erase him with the flick of his finger and that still would be a statement.
Everything Beyonder did approaching Tribunal level was a statement. Him being millions of times greater than the multiverse is a statement.
If you're arguing statements don't matter with HOTU then why are you arguing for Beyonder/Molecule Man when that's all they have to even begin to compare to what the HOTU did?
Ok, 1st off, I see I need to point out a flawed arguing strategy that you use over and over again that will get you crushed in debates: you put words into peoples mouth...
You've done this before when debating me (which lead to me beating you) and now you are doing it again; it doesnt work...stop doing it.
I never said that statements dont matter...
Not once, so your whole "counter" falls apart as result; you are completely and utterly wrong on what you are saying...your whole "counter" is invalid.
Now to clear the air, statements absolutely matter, especially as pertains to being abstract level and above...but statements dont matter as much as feats; you need both, but feats are more important.
Classic Owen, Thanos with HotU, Classic Beyonder all have statements proclaiming how badass they are...so (IMHO) what sets them apart are feats...
From what I have seen Thanos with HotU best feat is owning Tribunal and all the abstracts; that is a dam good feat, but it falls short of Owens feat of temporarily matching power with a being 1 million times stronger than everything in our reality combined...
And that is especially true since the HotU was present in our reality at the time of Secret Wars 2 issue 9 (as Insane Titan ignorantly ignores, logic dictates that for the HotU to be what it is, there is no way it could not have been around when Classic Beyonder/Owen fought, just like the Infinity Gems were around as well)...
So inconclusion, the mixture of statements and feats points to Classic Owen (and especially Classic Beyonder) being greater than Thanos with HotU...
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Last edited by TheLordofMurder on Mar 21st, 2015 at 02:53 AM
Anyway, HOTU was literally God's power. Let's look what happens when a statement gets used against you:
You tried to marginalize that into only a statement. Acting like it's completely unimportant. Look at the arrows for indication.
And then here you are now stating how important statements are. What was your point with your prior post then? What was the point of stating how feats are more important?
Your backtracking though because you realize Beyonder is all statements is cute though.
"Statements about God's power, well that isn't very good because his feats of effortlessly killing the entire universe at the same time weren't great."
"Oh ****, that's right, Beyonder was all statements...
Well, statements are super important. Look at me get angry for you responding to my post and taking it in the way it's laid out."
Like I don't even get how your first post was even supposed to get taken seriously. You said feats>>>>>>>statements, and then based Molecule Man's feats off of statements.
Also, Beyonder was supposed to be a million times greater than Molecule Man too.
And that statement came an issue after he got rocked by Molecule Man and taken by surprise by the Hulk. Which leaves us at hyperbole. He can't be millions of times greater than a being who's able to match him. Quite simple really. You taking that literally is hilarious btw.
And yes, it's millions. Not 1 million. You can't even get your facts straight.
The HOTU was not. The HOTU wasn't a thing. It did not exist. The IG was not a thing, or at least, it being put together wasn't a thing. You can't retroactively add things in to apply a statement to something that came later. You taking that literally means you think Beyonder was millions of times greater than God too... which judging by how quickly you tried to rule that out without addressing it, I'm not sure you believe it.
What you're doing is taking hyperbole like "most powerful on the planet" and you're taking that literally. And that's bad enough, but then you're retroactively applying that to anything that gets added into canon at a later date. How can you believe this is good logic? What if a being was created that was billions of times greater than the rest of the multiverse? Would Beyonder still somehow be millions of times greater? Like, such terrible logic, I can't believe I'm replying to this.
Galactus is the only being capable of facing Sphinx. Which put Galactus at number 1 and Sphinx at 2 in the universe and maybe beyond. That goes for every being ever apparently. Sphinx >>> Beyonder? http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/...er/FF212_05.jpg
Mjolnir striking Mjolnir is the most powerful energy source since the big bang. This happened after Secret Wars 2 too. So it's not even retroactive that Mjolnir/Mjolnir >>> Beyonder/Molecule Man. Direct. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...ingPower439.jpg
Nothing could stand against Hulk and Loki teamed up together. If only they stood side by side against the HOTU would they have won the fight. The crazy thing is if this counts as Beyonder being millions of times greater since this is only accomplishable if Loki/Hulk team up... nah, nothing could stand against them, so it must not have been counting them as a team up. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...spect10TTA1.jpg
I don't really care to look more than that. There's hundreds of dumb statements that can be taken literally to include many beings being above the HOTU and other things they clearly aren't even when those things exist. It's even worse when you get retroactive about it. Hell, the first time Namor appeared he was the strongest being ever. Naturally we should include every being that came later. Everything contradicts Namor's first appearance. Doesn't count.
But you think you're safe because your character hides behind a retcon. Even though that says it all right there. But even in the context of the storyline, he got rocked by Dr Doom. He got held up by Galactus Doom and got his powers stolen, he got matched by Molecule Man. He got wrassled by Hulk. The Molecule Man example is cute to me considering he was supposed to be millions of times greater than him along with the rest of Marvel... and you're using both the statement and him matching Beyonder to try and prove your point. Do you not see how badly that conflicts each other?
Beyonder gets matched by a being millions of times less than him and we're supposed to take that seriously? One of those has to be false. Either Molecule Man matching him was as pis as Doom rocking him, or Beyonder is clearly not millions of times greater.
Or we use common sense.
Anyway, HOTU was God's power and it effortlessly destroyed all the abstracts. That's the part you're leaving out. God's power.
Basically retroactively adding the HOTU into a ****ing hyperbole statement made almost two decades before the HOTU existed is retarded as shit. But that's your only "proof". A statement, and twisting and squirming.
If Beyonder is greater than the HOTU it's because of what he did. Not because the HOTU magically existed before Jim Starlin even wrote Infinity Gauntlet and the statement also applies to it.
This argument makes me feel stupid. Sinking to your levels and shit. Now all I need to do is bump this thread every couple hours with a dancing smiley even if you reply.
I can't even find the words to describe how stupid this is. I can't even put forth a good argument because it's dumbfounding how dumb this is to even try and argue. How do you function at these levels?
You should create a thread asking if the HOTU applies to a statement made about Beyonder's power though. That'd turn out swimmingly I'd imagine.
Dont assume,just ask me where I saw it and I will tell you!Korvac had alredy absorbed the powers of 6 or 7 of the mightiest cosmics and the whole Celestial host on earth.when the Tribunal met out punishment,Korvac was as huge as a planet and resisted him.The Tribunal gave up this universe for dead and sealed it off.Korvac than used the nullifier to destroy it.
You cant hide the fact that you put words in my mouth and accused me of saying something that I didnt say; you invalidated your argument and no amount of scans or text can change that...
Just give up...
You lost the fight without even getting out of the 1st round; even Insane Titan put up more resistance than you did...
FYI, Owens power originated beyond our reality, so its not included in that 1 million times statement...
Also, Classic Beyonders power has been referred to as GODS power on several occasions as well...
And when you add to the equation that the HotU didnt provide Thanos with true omnipresence (which I point out in a previous post), then its not truly allpowerful regardless of what the text says...
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Last edited by TheLordofMurder on Mar 21st, 2015 at 11:50 AM
Agreed, so now we have to use feats to set them apart...right?
Owen temporarily matching power with a being a million times stronger than everything in our reality combined trumps beating all the abstracts...wouldnt you agree?
No i wouldn't tbh. Secret Wars or what the beyonder did was an illusion, the LT from back then, even if you divide it into pre-rec and rec, was either Multiversal back during the pre-rec times and was omniversal in the post rec times. Iow the Marvel verse became bigger over the time and LT more powerful.
If you say there is a pre-rec beyonder that was powerful than a Multiversal LT, fine but I would say that later LT became Omniversal and hence more powerful than a single beyonder.
If we go by what is canon, than LT was always more powerful.
As for the HOTU, I still believe it is Universal not Omniversal, and it makes you the god of the Universe you are in, and each reality has it's share of subrealities/dimensions or whatever as we know. It is not different from the IG in that regard just a bit more powerful. People told me here that an IG, although Universal, can beat Multiversal powers if they are within the Universe, this can be applied to the HOTU as well, if someone comes inside the Universe the one having those powers would prevail most likely as he is the "God" of that Universe.
Maybe it is like with the Helllords, they are maybe just trans beings outside of their realm but inside their power is much much greater.
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You are correct, ultimately it was all illusion, but at the time of the writing the events of Secret Wars 2 was not illusion; thus the usage of Classic Owen (who's power level had not yet been retconned)...
As originally written, temporarily matching power with Classic Beyonder beats defeating the abstracts imo...
I fully agree with you about the Infinity Gauntlet btw; the comparison to Hell Lords seems to be accurate...
I think where the confusion comes in is that,the H.O.T.U,and the gauntlet make you god of that respective reality.But not the multi-verse,like they said in new avengers #30 the Beyonder`s beat the entire living tribunal,not a sliver from each universe.The strange thing about that is I.M.O. It makes the ultiamate nullifier stronger than both because it can reset the entire multi-verse!
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Mar 21st, 2015 12:17 AM
