I also disliked Nioh's magic system. I usually play spellcasters in my Souls titles, and it's annoying how few Soulslikes actually make genuine attempts at magic. I'm sure magic can be difficult for a developer, but Salt and Sanctuary and Code Vein pull off magic very well.
As Souls clones, I'd actually put them above Hollow Knight personally, simply for being more pure in their clone-ness.
Code Vein is particularly funny, because everything about it is cringe anime, yet it's so goddamn fun to play. It legitimately might be the best 3D Soulslike ever. Salt and Sanctuary is probably the best 2D one. Opinions vary though.
I haven't played Remnant or Hellpoint yet though.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 16th, 2021 at 06:03 PM
I have Hellpoint sitting in my GoG library on a giveaway, haven't actually tried it yet because reviews claim the boss fights are pretty disappointing.
It does look like an interesting setting though.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Oh yeah? Well I had the bug where one of the ****ing Stag Stations didn't work. I can't remember which one it was, but even after I unlocked it, it would never show up on the actual Station selection map. The Stag would respond to the bell, but I couldn't actually ride to the place. It appears to have been fixed after I beat the game, but it ****ing sucked. I played the PSNow version and purchased it afterwards, so maybe it was something with PSNow.
Either it way sucked having to walk. The map is large is enough that I would kinda groan when I needed to go to that area.
Yeah, and I give them bonus points for actually incorporating spellcasting into it as a playstyle. From what I've seen anyway.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 16th, 2021 at 07:13 PM
Yeah, I'm seeing the Soulslike term get applied to everything these days.
I haven't played Fallen Order, so I can't speak on it. But it does seem like people see a video game with someone swinging a sword and immediately call it a Soulslike.
Metroidvania is suffering from a similar phenomenon. A game makes you backtrack one time to unlock a door and folks immediately scream Metroidvania.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 16th, 2021 at 07:23 PM
I really hope Nioh's first level isn't typical level design. Spent upwards of an hour getting lost up and down samey looking rooms and staircases, until I stumbled onto a way out by dumb luck.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
It's supposed to be a trick-room, hall of mirrors style level, but it's just obnoxious and not fun whatsoever. I guess some folks like it, but getting lost in madhouse stages isn't really my thing.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 16th, 2021 at 10:07 PM
My least favorite thing about acclaimed Ninja Gaiden Black were the moments when you were just trying to figure out where the heck to go next. Getting lost isn't fun, it's frustrating, we have GPS for a reason.
Oddly this was never a problem in Hollow Knight. Probably because it was so packed full of secrets you couldn't go two screens without stumbling over something awesome. Plus the maps themselves were so well made getting lost wasn't much of an issue.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Hollow Knight diverging from the blueprint so much is what makes it the best Soulslike tbh.
Code Vein has pretty good gameplay and a fantastic class system, but where it falters is level design. The cathedral level in particular is one of the worst I've ever played.
As for Fallen Order, it's Sekiro for babies. Still pretty good though.
Did the tutorial. Was that even an option before? Because it seems like it should have been an option, so you knew targeting at least (Most early deaths were simply by missing the enemy and getting countered.)
Actually went back to the tutorial to quit my game and think on choosing a spirit. I like the fire fox better as a concept, but it only offers "strength", and those tend to be a less useful stat in Souls clones. I bet the shark is the one I want, spirit skill boost.
Fox is cooler though.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
And I guess an Axe and maybe the twin swords for crowds, I was using mostly axes in the opening level anyways, great armor breakers.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
I suppose it depends on where you draw the line. In my view, it was never following the Soulslike blueprint. The creators actually talked about this -- you have newer generations that, for them, Dark Souls was their first encounter with certain tropes because they never played the games that inspired it. "Dark Souls" becomes the new word to reference tropes that actually predate the game itself. Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania, nearly from top to bottom. It uses elements from Dark Souls, as well as Zelda II, Paper Mario, Mario, Mega Man, etc, but those are like cherries on top of the Metroidvania sundae. Salt and Sanctuary feels like the reverse, where it's a Soulslike with Metroidvania bits sprinkled on top.
Absolutely. The Cathedral was trash, specifically the 2nd half. And judging by the trophy stats for completing the level, about 50% of players (PS4) quit playing at that point. It was near Ocarina of Time Water Temple levels of obnoxious.
Fortunately, the rest of the game isn't like that. All we need in a souls clone is some serviceable level design that lets us scratch our Dark Souls itch in between titles.
It's part of why I don't like clones re-inventing the wheel, or getting too fancy. It's okay to be a clone. Just own the clone-ness and your own unique flavor will come out naturally anyway.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 18th, 2021 at 09:22 PM
I do think Hollow Knight is the more enthralling game, and to be fair, it fuses several different genre tropes, but I just don't rate it as a Soulslike. I know that's a hot take for much of the gaming world, and it's totally fine if they disagree. Just saying how I see it.
It's similar to Dead Cells. I'm not totally comfortable calling it a true Soulslike either. Of course, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, but it's fun to nerd out about it sometimes.
I also think Hollow Knight never set out to deliberately confuse the player like some games do. The emphasis was more on exploration than it was on navigating an arcane geographical puzzle.
There were definitely times I busted out a video guide because I didn't want to wander around in circles.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 19th, 2021 at 12:20 AM
How is classic Zelda much different from a Metroidvania? Both have a heavy emphesis on exploration, both tend to have gear based keys to open new areas.
I actually have more of a Zelda feel to Hollow Knight than I do Metroid, based purely on the whimsical and enchanting look and feel of the environment and characters, and the melody all coming together like a work of art.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
I'll leave this here for after your ban expires I guess.
Honestly, good question. Genres are admittedly not a hard science. People have argued classic Zelda and Metroid should be grouped together. I think, as far as exploration is concerned, they do differ on some points though. Even back then, Zelda was always a bit more open world. Metroidvania's are, simply speaking, one really large dungeon. There is no Overworld populated with separate cities or stages you enter. There are exceptions: Shantae: 1/2 Genie Hero straddles the line a bit, and earlier Shantae games even have pseudo-Overworlds that link the cities together.
And progress in a Metroidvania isn't necessarily linear. Progress often, in fact, means going back to an earlier area to open new zones within that area. In Zelda, progress usually meant moving beyond earlier areas without ever needing to return to them.
That said, don't forget Metroid isn't the sole creator of tropes in the genre. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was inspired by Zelda, and SOTN is the one that introduced RPG mechanics into the genre. Some folks like separating the Metroid from the Vania, as Metroid doesn't really do RPG stuff. The combat is also a bit different.
For modern examples, Axiom Verge follows Metroid. Bloodstained follows Castlevania.
Edit: I didn't mean to understate Zelda's influence on Hollow Knight. The creators are pretty open about it. Iirc, even the nail being the Knight's main form of offense was supposed to have been based on Link. It just be the 2D aspects that makes people associate it with Metroid. If you change the viewpoint, it would seem pretty Zelda-y.
Last edited by StyleTime on Sep 21st, 2021 at 07:58 PM