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Dragon Ball Super - Discussion Thread
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Kento
The last Hokage

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Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Dimestore dragon balls making you the strongest is kind of a retcon in and of itself. Would have been really handy to use that trick for the ToP, that's for sure.

And how far can "strongest plus one" keep going?
Can't be a retcon when it was never said they couldn't. Since, nobody ever asked that. And the people who would want it, either probably never thought of it, like Freeza, or prefer to do it under their own power like Vegeta and Gokou.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
That's what I find annoying as well... These relative nobodies being able to become "the strongest" on a whim.

Granolah doing it? Okay, I can accept that for plot reasons. But now Gas is stronger than Granolah simply because his wish is more recent? Meh.

All I'm really curious about at this point is where they'll go with OG-73.
We never actually hear what the wish was. All we see is Gas adult form, and beating on weakened opponents. And Gokou thinking Vegeta can beat Gas. And Granolah's power comes with a death sentence. Would Elec want to lose his muscle like that?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it were revealed that Bardock 'blinked' into SS long enough to one or two shot Gas.
Or just establishing that Bardock was one of the strongest saiyans to exist at the time would be enough to keep how he has always been viewed since Father of Gokou without ssj. Since, he doesn't do it again against freeza.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2021 12:18 AM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Gender: Male
Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kento
We never actually hear what the wish was. All we see is Gas adult form, and beating on weakened opponents. And Gokou thinking Vegeta can beat Gas. And Granolah's power comes with a death sentence. Would Elec want to lose his muscle like that?
True, we never heard what the actual wish was, but the implications are hard to ignore...

Immediately after the wish is made, Goku and Vegeta sense an "enormous power signature":
https://ibb.co/ZJ64ZYG

The adult/evolved Gas arrives, and Macki states that he is "the actual strongest warrior in the universe":
https://ibb.co/j8XZ5gn

And finally...
Granolah: "The title of the strongest belongs to me!!"
Macki: "You idiot! Gas's wish came after yours, which makes him stronger!"
https://ibb.co/tQnXQHn
https://ibb.co/cFDmb9Y


So as of now, it seems like Gas was given the exact same type of 'amp' as Granolah... Except he is potentially stronger than Granolah due to his wish being more recent, which I find ridiculous.

Though it could also be possible that Gas was only transformed into "the strongest" at THAT specific point in time(ie. when the others were already weakened)... So hopefully when they return back to full power, they'll surpass him.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kento
Or just establishing that Bardock was one of the strongest saiyans to exist at the time would be enough to keep how he has always been viewed since Father of Gokou without ssj. Since, he doesn't do it again against freeza.
Yeah, I certainly hope Bardock just broke through his preexisting limitations without transforming.


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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 21st, 2021 at 01:12 AM

Old Post Nov 21st, 2021 01:06 AM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kento
Can't be a retcon when it was never said they couldn't. Since, nobody ever asked that. And the people who would want it, either probably never thought of it, like Freeza, or prefer to do it under their own power like Vegeta and Gokou.

We never actually hear what the wish was. All we see is Gas adult form, and beating on weakened opponents. And Gokou thinking Vegeta can beat Gas. And Granolah's power comes with a death sentence. Would Elec want to lose his muscle like that?

Or just establishing that Bardock was one of the strongest saiyans to exist at the time would be enough to keep how he has always been viewed since Father of Gokou without ssj. Since, he doesn't do it again against freeza.



The dragon balls could not directly affect the likes of Vegeta and Nappa on the logic that it can not cause effects to beings who exceed the power level of the user, like sudden death.


This is also why the Dragon could not change Androids #17 and #18 into humans.


So yes, being able to create a being that far, far, FAR exceeds the power level of the user against all pre-established narratives is a huge retcon.

Old Post Nov 21st, 2021 01:20 AM
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cdtm
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And now a namek could have easily gotten around every single conflict since the Freeza saga by simply wishing for the strongest warrior in the universe.


Or better yet, turn the Namek god or elder into the strongest. Suddenly TA DA, the Dragon's power level is able to effect anyone and anything in the universe who isn't Beerus or Whis.

Old Post Nov 21st, 2021 01:24 AM
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Kento
The last Hokage

Gender: Male
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
True, we never heard what the actual wish was, but the implications are hard to ignore...

Immediately after the wish is made, Goku and Vegeta sense an "enormous power signature":
https://ibb.co/ZJ64ZYG

The adult/evolved Gas arrives, and Macki states that he is "the actual strongest warrior in the universe":
https://ibb.co/j8XZ5gn

And finally...
Granolah: "The title of the strongest belongs to me!!"
Macki: "You idiot! Gas's wish came after yours, which makes him stronger!"
https://ibb.co/tQnXQHn
https://ibb.co/cFDmb9Y


So as of now, it seems like Gas was given the exact same type of 'amp' as Granolah... Except he is potentially stronger than Granolah due to his wish being more recent, which I find ridiculous.

Though it could also be possible that Gas was only transformed into "the strongest" at THAT specific point in time(ie. when the others were already weakened)... So hopefully when they return back to full power, they'll surpass him.

Yeah, I certainly hope Bardock just broke through his preexisting limitations without transforming.
But, none of those people were there when the wish was made. They know he's more powerful, they know what Elec said he was going to wish for, and he's beating up people who are weakened. A semi-healed Gokou was able to hold his own for a little bit.

We never see what Elec does, or anything about the wish, leaving it up to interpretation or leaving it up to find out that Elec did something else. Or maybe Toyotaro will pull a Kishi and Gas dies in the middle of the fight. Which would be funny.

Also, there's nothing to say Bardock was weaker than Gas. He might just not been able to take on all of the Heeters at once. Gas blocked one attack, but it was also a distraction move to let bardock get away.

Also, Gas back then would be weaker than he is now so there's absolutely no knowing his power level, except that it doesn't blow up the scouters and that he's weaker than first form freeza.

If only Bardock would be the creator of an artificial moon of some kind, that would let him transform to oozaru and be known as a genius. laughing

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
The dragon balls could not directly affect the likes of Vegeta and Nappa on the logic that it can not cause effects to beings who exceed the power level of the user, like sudden death.


This is also why the Dragon could not change Androids #17 and #18 into humans.


So yes, being able to create a being that far, far, FAR exceeds the power level of the user against all pre-established narratives is a huge retcon.
But, the dragon balls can directly affect someone stronger if they choose it to happen. Shenron could have teleported Gokou to earth, if gokou wanted to go.

Also, 17 and 18 are..basically human, but Shenron could remove the bombs inside them.

Also, these dragonballs need no recharge time, so completely different set of rules are in play. Porunga is able to bring people back to life more than once while Shenron can't. So, what one set can do, another doesn't have to be able to.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2021 03:33 AM
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Galan007
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Location: Mars, 1985

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kento
But, none of those people were there when the wish was made. They know he's more powerful, they know what Elec said he was going to wish for, and he's beating up people who are weakened. A semi-healed Gokou was able to hold his own for a little bit.

We never see what Elec does, or anything about the wish, leaving it up to interpretation or leaving it up to find out that Elec did something else. Or maybe Toyotaro will pull a Kishi and Gas dies in the middle of the fight. Which would be funny.

Also, there's nothing to say Bardock was weaker than Gas. He might just not been able to take on all of the Heeters at once. Gas blocked one attack, but it was also a distraction move to let bardock get away.

Also, Gas back then would be weaker than he is now so there's absolutely no knowing his power level, except that it doesn't blow up the scouters and that he's weaker than first form freeza.

If only Bardock would be the creator of an artificial moon of some kind, that would let him transform to oozaru and be known as a genius. laughing
No, I agree. The wish itself wasn't shown/stated on panel, and no one aside from Elec was present when the wish was made... So hopefully it ends up being a ruse, because any decently strong character being able to wish themselves into becoming "the strongest" doesn't sit well with me. I'm just saying that as of right now, the implication is that Gas's power was massively amped, at the very least.


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Nov 22nd, 2021 01:44 PM
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bbrem123
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Do these wishes prove that Broly is below at least Granolah and Gas now?


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2021 02:04 PM
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Galan007
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The only characters in U7 that would have still been above Granolah at the time his wish was made are Beerus and Whis.


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Nov 28th, 2021 08:59 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
The only characters in U7 that would have still been above Granolah at the time his wish was made are Beerus and Whis.



Unless Goku was right. smile


Wonder how Gogeta would rank.

Old Post Nov 29th, 2021 02:40 AM
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bbrem123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
The only characters in U7 that would have still been above Granolah at the time his wish was made are Beerus and Whis.


What I was thinking as well. It is just strange all the comments that are made my characters in this manga/anime. Basically you cant believe anything anybody says about strength. Because wasnt Broly/Gogeta Beerus level...


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Old Post Nov 30th, 2021 03:01 PM
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Galan007
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I take every comment made about where character 'x' stands in relation to Beerus's power with a grain of salt, tbh... The dude seems to get massively scaled-up in every single arc, with absolutely no explanation given.


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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Dec 1st, 2021 03:03 AM
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Ridley_Prime
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While I thought Beerus being "re-scaled" was cool at first, particularly after the Jiren > him and all GoDs bait during the ToP, find it's getting kinda old now. Conceptually Beerus is cool, but I question why they keep his power relevant when he's just been a do nothing character for the most part.


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Old Post Dec 1st, 2021 03:59 AM
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cdtm
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Ultra Ego is "boundless".


Maybe Beerus is literally as strong as he needs to be. At this point it wouldn't surprise me if with the proper motivation, he could become even stronger than Whis.

Old Post Dec 1st, 2021 02:17 PM
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Galan007
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Back in BoG, it supposedly took 70% of Beerus's power to defeat n00b-SSG Goku... And even during RoF, Whis heavily implied that n00b-SSB Goku and n00b-SSB Vegeta working together could defeat Beerus. Then you have other shit, like it being implied that Jiren and Broly were in Beerus's tier of power and whatnot.

...Cut to the current arcs, however, and all of that has been thrown out the window, because Beerus is STILL stronger than characters like Moro, Granolah, MUI Goku, and UE Vegeta.

The sliding power-scale that Tori/Toyo have randomly placed Beerus on is asinine.


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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Dec 1st, 2021 02:26 PM
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Kento
The last Hokage

Gender: Male
Location: United States

Wasn't the Beerus 70% power only used in the movie? I don't remember if it's said in the anime, but it's not said in the manga at all. If it's not said in the anime, then that sliding scale of power doesn't exist. Because Jiren and UI Gokou can be > Beerus in the anime and it not matter when UI isn't a thing Gokou can consciously do and the show is over.

But the anime, the movie, and the manga all have very different levels of power.


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Old Post Dec 2nd, 2021 12:39 AM
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Moostaaaache. smile


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Old Post Dec 3rd, 2021 08:31 PM
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bbrem123
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Yeah does the manga even say anything about others creeping up to his power level? Or is it purely just from the anime/movies?


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Last edited by bbrem123 on Dec 6th, 2021 at 04:12 AM

Old Post Dec 6th, 2021 03:58 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kento
Wasn't the Beerus 70% power only used in the movie? I don't remember if it's said in the anime, but it's not said in the manga at all. If it's not said in the anime, then that sliding scale of power doesn't exist. Because Jiren and UI Gokou can be > Beerus in the anime and it not matter when UI isn't a thing Gokou can consciously do and the show is over.

But the anime, the movie, and the manga all have very different levels of power.
While I can agree that the manga and anime may as well be entirely separate continuities at this point, Beerus is still on a ridiculous sliding power scale in the manga, imo.

As of the ToP, Jiren was still stated to be stronger than Belmond. Granted, Beerus is clearly at the top of the GoD totem pole in the manga, but we don't actually know how large the gap between he and Belmond was intended to be in the manga, because Belmond feigned being incapacitated towards the end. I think Beerus WAS originally intended to be stronger, but not insurmountably so.

*So at the time, you probably could have deduced something like: Beerus ~/> Jiren > Belmond.


...And by the end of the saga, MUI Goku was on par with Jiren.

*So at the time, you probably could have deduced something like: Beerus ~ n00b-MUI Goku ~/> Jiren > Belmond.

_______________


As of the Broly film(which I do believe aligns with manga canon), Goku believed that Broly was ~/> Beerus. This is also backed by promotional material for the film.

*So at the time, you probably could have deduced something like: Broly ~/> Beerus ~ n00b-MUI Goku ~/> Jiren > Belmond.

_______________


As of the Moro saga, Goku stated that Moro-73 was the most powerful being that he had fought up to that point.

*So at the time, you probably could have deduced something like: current MUI Goku >>> Moro-73 > Broly ~/> Beerus ~ n00b-MUI Goku ~/> Jiren > Belmond.


...Yet by the end of the saga, Beerus was about to step in an own Angel Moro himself because he was getting annoyed.

*So at the time, you probably could have deduced something like: Beerus > Angel Moro ~ current MUI Goku >>> Moro-73 > Broly > n00b-MUI Goku ~/> Jiren > Belmond.

_______________


As of the current arc, Granolah was transformed into the most powerful being in the universe, "apart from the Gods themselves"... Which flat-out tells us that Beerus is STILL the top-dog in U7. We also found out that Beerus uses a super-secret Destruction technique, which is essentially the GoD equivalent of the Angels' UI.

*So as of now, we can logically deduce something like: Beerus > Granolah > current MUI Goku ~ UE Vegeta ~/> Angel Moro >>> Moro-73 > Broly > n00b-MUI Goku ~/> Jiren > Belmond.



tl;dr
At this point, the manga has wanked Beerus so astronomically that he would logically be able to own feebs like Jiren(and by proxy, Belmond) with literal finger-flicks... But I obviously don't think that was the authorial intent back when Tori/Toyo originally wrote the ToP saga. Hence my opinion that Beerus is being inextricably scaled-up for the lulz. /shrug


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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Dec 6th, 2021 01:49 PM
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Kento
The last Hokage

Gender: Male
Location: United States

Does anyone except Toppo mention that Jiren has a power level higher than Belmond? In the manga that is. Cause Whis mentions it in the anime.

The Broli movie kinda sits in a weird void of trying to tie into both the anime and the manga. I mean, the only scene we see in the manga is Gokou and Vegeta fighting Broli together. And we don't see Master SSB or Kaioken SSB/ASSB so it's a limbo thing. So it's hard to know how to take it in reference to the manga or the anime.

Gokou says Moro is the toughest person he had ever fought. Which, doesn't say much about his power level because of all Moro's esoteric abilities are what made him tough to fight. But even those abilities would not stop him from being Hakai'd.

So still, Beerus would still be top dog in abilities and power level, for Moro arc. And if you take in Broli movie, and Gokou's statement then FP beserk Broli = Beerus it still doesn't break much.

Then Granolah comes in and wishes to be the strongest. That's where the Broli statement comes into question.

If the movie power level does 100 percent tie into the manga and isn't just a this happened maybe not the same way but it happened, then does Broli still have that level of power since it was beserk rage, or does the wish count what Broli could do in normal circumstances. The wish can't count potential because saiyans growth in power usually by new forms proves that.

But Beerus' power level stays fine, if you take the Gokou line to apply to the anime but not the manga because it makes sense to apply to Toei's canon, but not Tori/Toya's canon because it's trying to tie into both.


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2021 10:26 PM
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The 2022 movie Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero has an awkward Cel Shaded CGI look to it making the movie look like a video game.

Old Post Dec 8th, 2021 04:42 PM
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