Yep. And again, if that were the case, then the same would go for Sidious. After he died in Dark Empire I, his spirit traveled all the way back to Byss and inhabited another host. His final death was successful because the spirits of all the Jedi he'd killed trapped him in oblivion.
No. You don't become a Sith until you become an Apprentice which doesn't happen until after the story begins. That's kind of how the Sith work. Otherwise every corpse in tombs would claim to be Sith.
I take it you've never played another BioWare game in your life if you think this is unique in the slightest.
Not really helping your argument.
Some deviation is allowed, per the chart.
And you don't become either until the story begins.
The Jedi? Sure, but neither have masters and neither are called "Jedi" officially until they are about to leave Tython.
Yes. Yes it is. For instance, Ostagar throws the Warden's life into turmoil, but they still do the job they were already doing. Stopping the Blight. Random war on Tython takes you from quiet apprentice to Hero. Raids make you a promising Master to be. It doesn't have to be a literal battle to follow the formula, but luckily TOR still has plenty of those that do.
Thanks for ignoring what I said.
It doesn't mean literal locations. Otherwise every building in game would go towards the total, and ME wouldn't count. Mass Effect also has more than four planets. Still follows the chart. Obviously they do. And yes they are universal cliches. BioWare however writes in this strict format. Finally, being common does not excuse that it is tired, if anything it exasperates the fact.
Now you're just trying too hard.
Dark Temple. The Forge. All of Tatooine's Dune Sea really. Jedi Temple. Vitiate's Tower, etc. All ancient places that need to be visited, per the story.
I don't see why it's so hard to accept that BioWare does this in literally everything they do. It's not like it would make TOR any worse a story because
Last edited by FreshestSlice on May 7th, 2015 at 12:26 AM
When Neph really likes something, he can't see any fault or failure in it. Pretty sure he thinks SWTOR is perfect. Just be thankful you two both like KOTOR 2 and for God's sake don't ever ask about The Dark Knight.
SWTOR sucks. I mean some of the storylines are really badass but the game is 90% dailies grind.
__________________ There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.
I don't see that as true. Even before you become an apprentice you're getting taught by Sith Overseers and learning Sith teachnings and shit. Besides, theres nothing really humble about the Inquisitor at the start of the game at all. You're an arrogant prick from the start who's already very powerful.
Except if you check out the chart Shepard is deemed not to be applicable because she's already a space badass at the start of the game. In swtor they specifically tried to pull a Shepard by making you already a badass from second one. The whole point is that "you hail from humble beginnings" but theres nothing humble about how any of the classes start, they were all already deemed worthy of their elite professions and complete prodigies in their field. The "Bioware formula" is:
Humble beginnings - attack! - join the group of badasses - save everyone.
In swtor you start at point 3 and completely skip the first 2 things.
Both Jedi have masters at the start of the game actually. Both are officially padawans. You become Jedi Knights when you leave Tython. You are always Jedi.
No, the battle that throws your quiet life into chaos is the Origin stuff that forces you to join the Wardens. Look at the chart. Mass Effect was said to only loosely fit the formula because there Cold War already exists and you're a soldier already. The whole point of this cliche is that a battle tears you away from your humble beginnings and forces you to join your special squad. Which does not happen.
You pretty much conceded that its not a party game so it doesn't apply, so I only replied to your first thing.
It does mean literal locations. Mass Effect has more than 4 planets, but the plot makes you travel to 4 of them which fits the cliche. Swtor has like 12 planets, it doesn't fit at all.
And no, a 3 act structure isn't a damn cliche. It's basic storytelling.
The whole point is you discovering these lost ruins. You don't really discover any of that, people already knew about them. But I can see some things applying, its hard to remember all of the stuff you go through in that game.
That's true it wouldn't be that important if it did fit with these cliche's. It just doesn't though.
Last edited by Nephthys on May 7th, 2015 at 11:33 AM
You still aren't a Sith, which is all that matters. It's pretty common for BioWare characters to be trained in the teachings of their respective orders before actually joining.
You are literally a slave. I can't think of a single thing more humble than that.
You are not even responding to the applicable point.
No, they really don't. But I see how this game of denial is going, so theirs really no point in trying to convince you being a slave and an unknown is humble.
No they don't. 'Thor doesn't meet their master until halfway through their time on Tython. HoT doesn't even HAVE a master until this point. And no, you aren't technically a Jedi until you are inducted into the ranks of the Jedi Knight.
Lol, way to dodge the point. Contrary to that chart, all HoFs don't have messed up climatic battles that push them into the service of the Wardens. Ostagar is the battle that sets the story.
Missing the point.
The whole point of the cliche is that some climatic event sends your life in a tailspin and sets the story. Origins having plenty of these doesn't change that.
Concede it's not a party game? That's an evident and needed no concession. You ignored a valid point that the companions fill the roles quite nicely on their own because it gets in the way of TOR not following the formula.
Mass Effect makes you travel to more than four planets.
-a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.
-a very predictable or unoriginal thing or person.
Literal definition of a cliche.
Yes. Denial is pretty funny.
You don't discover half of these ruins personally in BioWare games. You don't discover the Underdark, Deep Roads, Prothean ruins, sith ruins, etc, personally. I'm starting to doubt you've actually played that many if you think that you do, which seems evident since you're so in denial that TOR is as tired as a mule.
It fits it so perfectly that the glove is tailor-fitted.
Last edited by FreshestSlice on May 7th, 2015 at 12:24 PM
And you're not a slave. But you are a Sith. You're a Sith Acolyte. And actually that only happens in Kotor. You don't get trained for any of the other special squads.
And I said that the slave was indeed the only humble origin, but then pointed out that you don't actually start the game as a slave so I don't see it counting. You're not a slave anymore and you never play as one.
I'm responding to the only point that matters, the actual chart. And I was actually responding to your point. You said that it wasn't unique that you play as a prodigy and respected badass from minute 1. And I said yeah it isn't unique. Because Commander Shepard was also that and the chart specifically says she doesn't count. So boom.
Great argument. Here let me try:
Uh n-n-no u!
For someone claiming I haven't played the game you're pretty ignorant yourself. You meet Yuon Par in the first 4 minutes, immediately after you land on Tython. And the Knight is taken as Orgus' padawan pretty quickly. You literally land on the planet, go and meet him then go to the temple and he takes you as his apprentice. But thats irrelevant. If you'd bothered to check you'd see that the game calls the HoT a padawan in the opening title scrawl.
And no, you're still a Jedi even if you're a padawan. You're not fully-fledged yet but you are still part of the Order.
I don't care about your opinion, I'm going by the chart which YOU posted. And Dragon Age isn't the point, Swtor is. There is no battle that throws your life into chaos and forces you to answer the call, so Swtor doesn't fit the cliche.
How the douche is that missing the point? Swtor has literally the same scenario, you start off in a Cold War and already a member of your profession.
Which doesn't happen in Swtor.
But they don't fill those roles you tool. The trope is "the attack leaves you with two companions, of magical and martial prowess". There is no attack and until Act II NO class gets both a magical and martial companion. You start off with 1 companion and the Knight is the only class to get 2 before the prologue is over. That you *gasp!* actually get more companions (!!!!!) later on in the game doesn't fit the cliche and doesn't fit the formula at all.
So does every Bioware game. The cliche is that you travel to 4 "main" locations after the first part of the game and before the end of it. You become a Jedi and then you go to Tatooine, Kashyyyk, Manaan and Korriban before heading to Lehon. That's how the formula works. If you're going to make a criticism at least try to understand what you're criticizing please. And regardless, Swtor still doesn't fit in the slightest.
The word "and" is predictable, overused and unoriginal. That doesn't make it a cliche. That there's three acts to something isn't cliche and if you tried to make it a valid criticism of something you'd be laughed off the internet.
Denial of what, you didn't say anything contrary of my point.
You actually do discover quite a few of those. My point was that you mostly go to places in swtor that people are and have already been excavating and shit. I already said that if you looked enough you could find some examples but tbh it's nowhere near egregious enough to to fit anything by loosely.
Sure, tailor-fit for a rancor maybe.
Last edited by Nephthys on May 7th, 2015 at 01:28 PM
Well, on topic, no he obviously shouldn't be banned. He's obviously not far above, if at all, DE Sidious and FOTJ Luke. He's definitely a good match for high-tier strikes teams (ex: Revan and Darth Caedus).