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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Should Vitiate be banned from versus contests?


Should Vitiate be banned from versus contests?
Started by: S_W_LeGenD

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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Aurbere
Versus threads don't really follow a progressing storyline, so I don't see the issue. If he loses, he loses. Him surviving as an Essence would only really matter if there was a storyline that progressed. You don't see that too often in versus threads.


Yep. And again, if that were the case, then the same would go for Sidious. After he died in Dark Empire I, his spirit traveled all the way back to Byss and inhabited another host. His final death was successful because the spirits of all the Jedi he'd killed trapped him in oblivion.

Old Post May 6th, 2015 11:21 PM
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FreshestSlice
Eternal Commander

Registered: May 2014
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Slave is the only humble one, but even then you don't actually start off as a slave, you start off as a Sith, the most privileged position in the empire.

No. You don't become a Sith until you become an Apprentice which doesn't happen until after the story begins. That's kind of how the Sith work. Otherwise every corpse in tombs would claim to be Sith.
quote:

As for the others as the Knight/Consular/Warrior you're an exceptionally talented apprentice put on the fast track to masterhood and heaped with praise already.

I take it you've never played another BioWare game in your life if you think this is unique in the slightest.
quote:

The Trooper is being accepted into the most elite squad in the Republic

Not really helping your argument.
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and the Smuggler is already an experienced captain of her own ship.

Some deviation is allowed, per the chart.
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Padawans are still part of the Jedi order as are acolytes part of the Sith.

And you don't become either until the story begins.
quote:

The game starts as soon as you land in the Jedi/Sith headquarters and start training as a real Jedi/Sith.

The Jedi? Sure, but neither have masters and neither are called "Jedi" officially until they are about to leave Tython.
quote:

The war happens two acts into the game and it doesn't throw your "quiet life" into chaos, you just continue to do the job you already were doing. Throughout the game you simply perform your role as you would at any time. That theres conflict in a game isn't part of the Bioware formula.

Yes. Yes it is. For instance, Ostagar throws the Warden's life into turmoil, but they still do the job they were already doing. Stopping the Blight. Random war on Tython takes you from quiet apprentice to Hero. Raids make you a promising Master to be. It doesn't have to be a literal battle to follow the formula, but luckily TOR still has plenty of those that do.
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The only one that gets two companions in the prologue is the Knight and one is an astrodroid.

Thanks for ignoring what I said.
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The chart says locations. And that structure is classic indeed, its ridiculously common. Has nothing to do with Bioware.

It doesn't mean literal locations. Otherwise every building in game would go towards the total, and ME wouldn't count. Mass Effect also has more than four planets. Still follows the chart. Obviously they do. And yes they are universal cliches. BioWare however writes in this strict format. Finally, being common does not excuse that it is tired, if anything it exasperates the fact.
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Those are visions, not dream sequences.

Now you're just trying too hard.
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The Rakata are the only ones you really discover and have to look into, everything else is pretty regular tomb raiding.

Dark Temple. The Forge. All of Tatooine's Dune Sea really. Jedi Temple. Vitiate's Tower, etc. All ancient places that need to be visited, per the story.

I don't see why it's so hard to accept that BioWare does this in literally everything they do. It's not like it would make TOR any worse a story because
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
SWTOR's plot is far too basic for that.


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Last edited by FreshestSlice on May 7th, 2015 at 12:26 AM

Old Post May 7th, 2015 12:23 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

When Neph really likes something, he can't see any fault or failure in it. Pretty sure he thinks SWTOR is perfect. Just be thankful you two both like KOTOR 2 and for God's sake don't ever ask about The Dark Knight.

Old Post May 7th, 2015 01:42 AM
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Based
iPinoy

Registered: Jul 2010
Location:


 

^ not to be one of those guys but I feel if you want to massively critique TDK it's to be contrarian.

Old Post May 7th, 2015 01:48 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Based
^ not to be one of those guys but I feel if you want to massively critique TDK it's to be contrarian.


This may shock you... But by no objective measure is TDK (or any film for that matter) without flaw. It's art and art is measured subjectively.

Old Post May 7th, 2015 10:44 AM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
When Neph really likes something, he can't see any fault or failure in it. Pretty sure he thinks SWTOR is perfect. Just be thankful you two both like KOTOR 2 and for God's sake don't ever ask about The Dark Knight.


Pretty sure I don't. I merely looked down that chart and was almost none of it applied to Swtor. It's not bias, I brought up a factual problem with FS's point.


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Old Post May 7th, 2015 10:46 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

Sure, Neph. Suuuure.

Old Post May 7th, 2015 10:49 AM
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psmith81992
Restricted

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:

Account Restricted


 

SWTOR sucks. I mean some of the storylines are really badass but the game is 90% dailies grind.


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Old Post May 7th, 2015 11:23 AM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. You don't become a Sith until you become an Apprentice which doesn't happen until after the story begins. That's kind of how the Sith work. Otherwise every corpse in tombs would claim to be Sith.


I don't see that as true. Even before you become an apprentice you're getting taught by Sith Overseers and learning Sith teachnings and shit. Besides, theres nothing really humble about the Inquisitor at the start of the game at all. You're an arrogant prick from the start who's already very powerful.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I take it you've never played another BioWare game in your life if you think this is unique in the slightest.

Not really helping your argument.

Some deviation is allowed, per the chart.


Except if you check out the chart Shepard is deemed not to be applicable because she's already a space badass at the start of the game. In swtor they specifically tried to pull a Shepard by making you already a badass from second one. The whole point is that "you hail from humble beginnings" but theres nothing humble about how any of the classes start, they were all already deemed worthy of their elite professions and complete prodigies in their field. The "Bioware formula" is:

Humble beginnings - attack! - join the group of badasses - save everyone.

In swtor you start at point 3 and completely skip the first 2 things.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And you don't become either until the story begins.

The Jedi? Sure, but neither have masters and neither are called "Jedi" officially until they are about to leave Tython.


Both Jedi have masters at the start of the game actually. Both are officially padawans. You become Jedi Knights when you leave Tython. You are always Jedi.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes. Yes it is. For instance, Ostagar throws the Warden's life into turmoil, but they still do the job they were already doing. Stopping the Blight. Random war on Tython takes you from quiet apprentice to Hero. Raids make you a promising Master to be. It doesn't have to be a literal battle to follow the formula, but luckily TOR still has plenty of those that do.


No, the battle that throws your quiet life into chaos is the Origin stuff that forces you to join the Wardens. Look at the chart. Mass Effect was said to only loosely fit the formula because there Cold War already exists and you're a soldier already. The whole point of this cliche is that a battle tears you away from your humble beginnings and forces you to join your special squad. Which does not happen.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thanks for ignoring what I said.


You pretty much conceded that its not a party game so it doesn't apply, so I only replied to your first thing.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It doesn't mean literal locations. Otherwise every building in game would go towards the total, and ME wouldn't count. Mass Effect also has more than four planets. Still follows the chart. Obviously they do. And yes they are universal cliches. BioWare however writes in this strict format. Finally, being common does not excuse that it is tired, if anything it exasperates the fact.


It does mean literal locations. Mass Effect has more than 4 planets, but the plot makes you travel to 4 of them which fits the cliche. Swtor has like 12 planets, it doesn't fit at all.

And no, a 3 act structure isn't a damn cliche. It's basic storytelling.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Now you're just trying too hard.


Lol.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dark Temple. The Forge. All of Tatooine's Dune Sea really. Jedi Temple. Vitiate's Tower, etc. All ancient places that need to be visited, per the story.


The whole point is you discovering these lost ruins. You don't really discover any of that, people already knew about them. But I can see some things applying, its hard to remember all of the stuff you go through in that game.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't see why it's so hard to accept that BioWare does this in literally everything they do. It's not like it would make TOR any worse a story because


That's true it wouldn't be that important if it did fit with these cliche's. It just doesn't though.


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Last edited by Nephthys on May 7th, 2015 at 11:33 AM

Old Post May 7th, 2015 11:31 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Earth


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yep. And again, if that were the case, then the same would go for Sidious. After he died in Dark Empire I, his spirit traveled all the way back to Byss and inhabited another host. His final death was successful because the spirits of all the Jedi he'd killed trapped him in oblivion.

Difference is that Vitiate's essence continues to function like his mortal form, capable of combat, killing other beings, and influencing the physical realm in impressive ways.

Vitiate have overcome shortcomings of mortality and mastered the Dark Side to its highest degree.


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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 7th, 2015 at 11:48 AM

Old Post May 7th, 2015 11:44 AM
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FreshestSlice
Eternal Commander

Registered: May 2014
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see that as true. Even before you become an apprentice you're getting taught by Sith Overseers and learning Sith teachnings and shit.

You still aren't a Sith, which is all that matters. It's pretty common for BioWare characters to be trained in the teachings of their respective orders before actually joining.
quote:

Besides, theres nothing really humble about the Inquisitor at the start of the game at all. You're an arrogant prick from the start who's already very powerful.

You are literally a slave. I can't think of a single thing more humble than that.
quote:

Except if you check out the chart Shepard is deemed not to be applicable because she's already a space badass at the start of the game.

You are not even responding to the applicable point.
quote:

In swtor they specifically tried to pull a Shepard by making you already a badass from second one. The whole point is that "you hail from humble beginnings" but theres nothing humble about how any of the classes start, they were all already deemed worthy of their elite professions and complete prodigies in their field. The "Bioware formula" is:

Humble beginnings - attack! - join the group of badasses - save everyone.

In swtor you start at point 3 and completely skip the first 2 things.

No, they really don't. But I see how this game of denial is going, so theirs really no point in trying to convince you being a slave and an unknown is humble.
quote:

Both Jedi have masters at the start of the game actually. Both are officially padawans. You become Jedi Knights when you leave Tython. You are always Jedi.

No they don't. 'Thor doesn't meet their master until halfway through their time on Tython. HoT doesn't even HAVE a master until this point. And no, you aren't technically a Jedi until you are inducted into the ranks of the Jedi Knight.
quote:

No, the battle that throws your quiet life into chaos is the Origin stuff that forces you to join the Wardens. Look at the chart.

Lol, way to dodge the point. Contrary to that chart, all HoFs don't have messed up climatic battles that push them into the service of the Wardens. Ostagar is the battle that sets the story.
quote:

Mass Effect was said to only loosely fit the formula because there Cold War already exists and you're a soldier already.

Missing the point.
quote:

The whole point of this cliche is that a battle tears you away from your humble beginnings and forces you to join your special squad. Which does not happen.

The whole point of the cliche is that some climatic event sends your life in a tailspin and sets the story. Origins having plenty of these doesn't change that.
quote:

You pretty much conceded that its not a party game so it doesn't apply, so I only replied to your first thing.

Concede it's not a party game? That's an evident and needed no concession. You ignored a valid point that the companions fill the roles quite nicely on their own because it gets in the way of TOR not following the formula.

quote:

It does mean literal locations. Mass Effect has more than 4 planets, but the plot makes you travel to 4 of them which fits the cliche. Swtor has like 12 planets, it doesn't fit at all.

Mass Effect makes you travel to more than four planets.
quote:

And no, a 3 act structure isn't a damn cliche. It's basic storytelling.

cliche(n)
-a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.
-a very predictable or unoriginal thing or person.

Literal definition of a cliche.
quote:

Lol.

Yes. Denial is pretty funny.
quote:

The whole point is you discovering these lost ruins. You don't really discover any of that, people already knew about them. But I can see some things applying, its hard to remember all of the stuff you go through in that game.

You don't discover half of these ruins personally in BioWare games. You don't discover the Underdark, Deep Roads, Prothean ruins, sith ruins, etc, personally. I'm starting to doubt you've actually played that many if you think that you do, which seems evident since you're so in denial that TOR is as tired as a mule.
quote:

That's true it wouldn't be that important if it did fit with these cliche's. It just doesn't though.

It fits it so perfectly that the glove is tailor-fitted.


__________________

"I am the chosen of the Emperor. I am undefeated in battle. Do not doubt me."

Last edited by FreshestSlice on May 7th, 2015 at 12:24 PM

Old Post May 7th, 2015 12:21 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You still aren't a Sith, which is all that matters. It's pretty common for BioWare characters to be trained in the teachings of their respective orders before actually joining.


And you're not a slave. But you are a Sith. You're a Sith Acolyte. And actually that only happens in Kotor. You don't get trained for any of the other special squads.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You are literally a slave. I can't think of a single thing more humble than that.


And I said that the slave was indeed the only humble origin, but then pointed out that you don't actually start the game as a slave so I don't see it counting. You're not a slave anymore and you never play as one.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You are not even responding to the applicable point.


I'm responding to the only point that matters, the actual chart. And I was actually responding to your point. You said that it wasn't unique that you play as a prodigy and respected badass from minute 1. And I said yeah it isn't unique. Because Commander Shepard was also that and the chart specifically says she doesn't count. So boom.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, they really don't. But I see how this game of denial is going, so theirs really no point in trying to convince you being a slave and an unknown is humble.


Great argument. Here let me try:

Uh n-n-no u!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No they don't. 'Thor doesn't meet their master until halfway through their time on Tython. HoT doesn't even HAVE a master until this point. And no, you aren't technically a Jedi until you are inducted into the ranks of the Jedi Knight.


For someone claiming I haven't played the game you're pretty ignorant yourself. You meet Yuon Par in the first 4 minutes, immediately after you land on Tython. And the Knight is taken as Orgus' padawan pretty quickly. You literally land on the planet, go and meet him then go to the temple and he takes you as his apprentice. But thats irrelevant. If you'd bothered to check you'd see that the game calls the HoT a padawan in the opening title scrawl. roll eyes (sarcastic)

And no, you're still a Jedi even if you're a padawan. You're not fully-fledged yet but you are still part of the Order.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Lol, way to dodge the point. Contrary to that chart, all HoFs don't have messed up climatic battles that push them into the service of the Wardens. Ostagar is the battle that sets the story.


I don't care about your opinion, I'm going by the chart which YOU posted. And Dragon Age isn't the point, Swtor is. There is no battle that throws your life into chaos and forces you to answer the call, so Swtor doesn't fit the cliche.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Missing the point.


How the douche is that missing the point? Swtor has literally the same scenario, you start off in a Cold War and already a member of your profession.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The whole point of the cliche is that some climatic event sends your life in a tailspin and sets the story. Origins having plenty of these doesn't change that.


Which doesn't happen in Swtor.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Concede it's not a party game? That's an evident and needed no concession. You ignored a valid point that the companions fill the roles quite nicely on their own because it gets in the way of TOR not following the formula.


But they don't fill those roles you tool. The trope is "the attack leaves you with two companions, of magical and martial prowess". There is no attack and until Act II NO class gets both a magical and martial companion. You start off with 1 companion and the Knight is the only class to get 2 before the prologue is over. That you *gasp!* actually get more companions (!!!!!) later on in the game doesn't fit the cliche and doesn't fit the formula at all.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Mass Effect makes you travel to more than four planets.


So does every Bioware game. The cliche is that you travel to 4 "main" locations after the first part of the game and before the end of it. You become a Jedi and then you go to Tatooine, Kashyyyk, Manaan and Korriban before heading to Lehon. That's how the formula works. If you're going to make a criticism at least try to understand what you're criticizing please. And regardless, Swtor still doesn't fit in the slightest.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
cliche(n)
-a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.
-a very predictable or unoriginal thing or person.

Literal definition of a cliche.


The word "and" is predictable, overused and unoriginal. That doesn't make it a cliche. That there's three acts to something isn't cliche and if you tried to make it a valid criticism of something you'd be laughed off the internet.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes. Denial is pretty funny.


Denial of what, you didn't say anything contrary of my point.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You don't discover half of these ruins personally in BioWare games. You don't discover the Underdark, Deep Roads, Prothean ruins, sith ruins, etc, personally. I'm starting to doubt you've actually played that many if you think that you do, which seems evident since you're so in denial that TOR is as tired as a mule.


You actually do discover quite a few of those. My point was that you mostly go to places in swtor that people are and have already been excavating and shit. I already said that if you looked enough you could find some examples but tbh it's nowhere near egregious enough to to fit anything by loosely.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It fits it so perfectly that the glove is tailor-fitted.


Sure, tailor-fit for a rancor maybe.


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Last edited by Nephthys on May 7th, 2015 at 01:28 PM

Old Post May 7th, 2015 01:22 PM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Well, on topic, no he obviously shouldn't be banned. He's obviously not far above, if at all, DE Sidious and FOTJ Luke. He's definitely a good match for high-tier strikes teams (ex: Revan and Darth Caedus).


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Old Post May 7th, 2015 06:15 PM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

.


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Old Post May 7th, 2015 06:16 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

This has to be one of the funniest threads I've ever seen, and it was meant to be serious! lmao


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Old Post May 27th, 2016 03:21 AM
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Syndicate
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Menifee, California.


 

I'm sure Legend doesn't think this way anymore.

Old Post May 27th, 2016 03:28 AM
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SunRazer
Outer God

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

Not sure why Vitiate deserves exemption when just about nothing he's presented is new or groundbreaking.

Old Post May 27th, 2016 11:40 AM
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EmperorSidious2
Master of Magic

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Heavens of Mystic The Birth Place


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure why Vitiate deserves exemption when just about nothing he's presented is new or groundbreaking.


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Old Post May 27th, 2016 01:03 PM
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Sinious
Mr. Sheev Determination

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bumping so Bartlander can post.


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Old Post Jun 17th, 2016 05:22 AM
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MS Warehouse
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Registered: May 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure why Vitiate deserves exemption when just about nothing he's presented is new or groundbreaking.


Aside from his Nathema/Ziost rituals? Or his weird essence transfer? Yea, you're right.

Old Post Jun 17th, 2016 11:22 AM
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