Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Darth Nyriss was amplified by the extreme dark side energies of Dromund Kaas and the massive archive of Sith paraphernalia throughout her compound. It is stated on three separate occasions the she was too fast and strong to keep up with because her amplified power translated into extreme physical augmentation.
Even despite this Meetra Surik was holding her own in the duel for a limited time and this despite the fact she suffered from a decreased connection to the Force whilst on the planet, a connection which had already suffered severely on Nathema days beforehand.
Now take into account what user Selenial pointed out, Meetra Surik took internal amplifications to the highest possible degree(though I didn't know that myself admittedly). This combat speed is shown in two fights:
1.She analyses a group of mercenaries and telekinetically throws one into a cave wall with sufficient kinetic Force she died on impact... all in half of a second.
2.She faces Imperial Guardsmen whom are empowered by the Emperor to the degree that even Revan's TK is ineffective on one of them, she kills two of them in a few seconds. These being the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the entire organization charged by the Sith Emperor himself to protect him.
Both of these feats were accomplished on Dromund Kaas, where again her connection to the Force is diminished by the exteme Dark Side energies of the planet. On a neutral playing field she would be even faster in combat.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
She still lost the fight and Nyriss is nowhere near in the same realm as skilled as Vader. Also loling at her "holding her own" the text even says she was outmatched.
Not sure why you're bringing that point up either, as the version I'm using in this thread is KOTOR 2 Surik. And no beating fodder guards is in no way comparable to beating the Greatest Imperial duelist and one of the canonically best Jedi slayers of all time.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
KotOR 2 Surik is probably more versatile and has more responsive skill (even though Luke is remarkable in these regards as well), but in terms of sheer lightsaber prowess, I'd say Luke edges her out.
He didn't just beat him through "dark rage", he forced him on the defensive multiple times as well.
-Return of the Jedi novelization.
Before that Luke even force him on the defensive, so its quite obvious he negated Vader's Strength advantage over him
-Credit to Shootingnova/Newguy
And even in spite of Traya's amp she hasn't got a skill feat comparable to Vader at all.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Nyriss didn't win via skill, but through speed and physical strength. Nice you managed to quote the wrong part of the fight, well done. The book also states that Surik fought her but was overwhelmed regardless and was going to be cut through her midrim, if not for Darth Sion.
Malachor V Surik is about 10 weeks before Dromund Kaas Surik, not seeinga huge difference in power. Unless you take Traya and Sion's statements that Surik becomes more powerful than Traya to a very serious degree.
Regardless I am replying to Jmanghan's claiming that the one Nyriss feat somehow retcons every other feat she has accomplished.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
I never claimed Nyriss was more skilled than Surik, and you also acknowledged that she was beaten down regardless so well done yourself . I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Last edited by carthage on May 16th, 2015 at 07:06 AM
You hype Darth Vader too much. Darth Vader may have the strength and skill to contend with Darth Nyriss but the latter likely have advantage in the matters of command of the Force and speed.
They are not fodder if Jedi powers don't effect them and they are able to match Jedi and Sith in combat prowess.
I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Darth Traya is fodder to Darth Vader. Nope.
Darth Traya have demonstrated expertise in the use of Force powers that are among the most difficult to master; a sign of great potential, talent, and command of the Force. In short, Darth Traya was able to wield the Force in ways Darth Vader never could.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 16th, 2015 at 08:01 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
You argued that Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Darth Vader despite the fact Nyriss wasn't winning via skill. Instead she won via speed, but even then as the novel states she was able to defend herself due to lightsaber skill.
They are not two different characters, all of her feats are valid in this debate.
Oh and Luke was not beating an all-out Vader, Luke was hiding from a Vader that was trying to convert him, when Luke decided to go all-out Vader was far from prepared and lost in very short order. Coincidentally Luke himself states that if Darth Vader had intended to kill him he would be dead.
ROTJ Luke is not Vader tier and never has been Carthage so make a proper argument concerning whom ROTJ Luke defeated in all-out.
Make sure it compares to walking the surface of Malachor V:
Which is also covered in toxic fumes:
Whilst fighting the powerful Storm Beasts:
Then an amped legion of Elite Sith:
amped Darth Sion and finally amped Darth Traya:
On Malachor V:
Thanks to EvanNova64/ShootingNova/SunRazer.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
No I didn't I said Nyriss was nowhere near as skilled as Vader and pointed out where in Revan the text says she was outmatched in her fight. Nowhere did I say Nyriss was more skilled than Meetra, Nyriss won due to being amped by DK. Try again. I make no claims for Meetra's skill, other than her being inferior to Luke by virtue of not having beaten anyone apart from beings that are largely accolades and lack the showings of Vader.
Ok, I'll acknowledge her beating Non force sensitive guards whom Luke and Vader would stomp easily
All of which is completely invalidated by canon sources . In addition to the quotes I posted earlier:
Vader also considered Luke a worthy opponent as of the Empire strikes back
--Shadows of the Empire
Maybe you should try reading my OP this battle is sabers only?
So what I'm gathering is none of the opponents you've listed remotely come close to Vader in skill. She killed Storm beasts? That's nice tell me how random beasts would somehow be an adequate gauge of her abilities as a ligthsaber combatant? It isn't or I can just point out that Vader killed Lyleks that can besiege entire cities, even though that has no bearing whatsoever on Vader's abilities as a duelist so much as defeating skilled opponents
Not sure how beating fodder Sith >>> beating a guy and negating the strength advantage of one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos
Sion is a joke of a duelist barring his near-immortality, and Traya has no skill feats of note that would compare to Vader as a duelist.
Her being afflicted by a nexus is worth mentioning, but considering how her opponents have next to feats to determine how skilled they are-I'm not sure how any of that at all compares to someone like Vader or being able to hold his own against Vader in ESB in spite of virtually no training.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Last edited by carthage on May 16th, 2015 at 09:24 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
LMAO at using the movie novels that are so far out of date it's hilarious. Plenty of sources have stated Vader never went all out against Luke in either confrontation.
Oh and calling the elite Sith of an order founded upon the most combat experienced and well-trained era of Jedi ever all fodder and featless is hilarious in all honesty, lowballing the entire KOTOR era isn't going to convince any body.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Proof? And Disregarding canon sources that don't support your point of view is laughable , especially when you've provided no evidence that Meetra is in any sense more skilled than Luke per feats. You have no problem sucking Exar's cock with "out of date" sources from the TOTJ handbook
No but actually showing a single instance where Meetra has defeated an opponent superior to Vader in feats would really help your cause
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Last edited by carthage on May 16th, 2015 at 09:45 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
"these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Pg.103
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"the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence."
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, Pg.129
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"The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters of the battlefield, others become highly skilled duelists, able to battle Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat."
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Swtor didn't even exist when that guide was written. Swtor Jedi are made clear to basically be a better version of the Kotor Jedi. They are much larger, better equipped and better trained.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Carthage it appears I was wrong concerning Luke, in older sources your stance is correct, however more modern sources make it quite clear that Luke defeated Vader due to tapping into the Dark Side not due to skill alone.
However I question just how well this Luke iteration deals with someone with near top tier speed feats and excellent precognition. Not to mention full mastery of lightsaber combat and unarmed combat.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Thanks Scribble!
May 16th, 2015 05:37 AM
. I personally listed KOTOR 2 Exile, but if you want to acknowledge Revan Meetra- you do so at your own peril. Traya and Sion are fodder to Vader in terms of sheer lightsaber skill/mastery/feats. Unless you've got someone better that Surik has beaten that surpasses Luke beating Vader, I think we're done here 
