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Donald Trump, 45th President of the United States
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Originally posted by Q99
That's not what a traitor is, and we're not socialistic. Not even close.


Did you know that something like Obamacare has been in place in one US state for 30 years? It's true.


Someone passing laws you don't like =/= traitor.

Obama was elected by popular vote and the laws of the nation, and he was elected in large part on passing healthcare and similar policies that he did.


Like it or not, that's what the American people wanted, and if you call doing what the populace wanted the president to do being a 'traitor,' you have messed up standards, and not a lot of respect for the 'for the people, by the people' standard.



Now on to Trump:




You'd think so, wouldn't you? But seriously, he's a joke. He's gone backrupt multiple times, like you say. And the way he's done that is he's suckered people into helping him get back on his feat each time, but in short, he's actually pretty bad at running a business, and a lot of what he does is he uses image, fancy buildings and boats and such, to convince people he's more wealthy than he is, and therefore a safe investment, and therefore they give him money to do stuff, and he gets his head above water again. For a time, but then his projects fail and he declares bankruptcy again.

Overstating his wealth by a factor of two is not only common for him, but part of his whole strategy.

If he's *that* bad at running a business, what's he supposed to bring to the presidency? 'Pretending to be richer than you are to get investors' is not exactly a useful skill to have in the job.


Oh look at this goody.

What exactly is Hilary supposed to bring to the presidency besides a failed foreign policy and foreign donations/bribes.

I forgot though, those are all prime candidacy trades of liberal candidates. God forbid a man that can pay for his own campaign and doesn't have to take them from people expecting a return on their investment.

You wanna talk about bankruptcy's vs failed foreign policies? I'd vote for a guy that goes bankrupt and comes back to be a billionaire over and over, over a crooked politician any day. But doesn't mean I'm voting for him because he will never make the primary.. Besides America is bankrupt anyways, read the news. Maybe Obama should put tariffs on Chinese goods, but I know you have an answer for that too on why he does not. After all that would bring jobs back to the US..laughing out loud


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2015 11:44 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
I mean I would guess that he can't be that crappy since he is worth billions. On the other hand if he is going to run on the premise of business expertise then multiple filings for bankruptcy don't help.






I don't know..,that seems to suggest resilience and experience.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2015 04:56 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial

What exactly is Hilary supposed to bring to the presidency besides a failed foreign policy and foreign donations/bribes.

Bill.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2015 05:27 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
Bill.


A good reason to not vote for her. She should divorce him.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2015 05:50 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Oh look at this goody.

What exactly is Hilary supposed to bring to the presidency besides a failed foreign policy and foreign donations/bribes.



A far superior economic policy that doesn't result in failure and recessions where it's tried (and since we're talking elections, yes, we do have to compare it to the Republican one), a superior track record on civil rights, continued support of the successful healthcare policy (came in *under budget* and gives better healthcare to tens of millions. A long-term positive investment), and, oh yes, while he foreign policy isn't great, it still surpasses that of the Republicans.

That's one of the things, even in the areas where the Democrats are weak, the Republicans tend to be even weaker. The Bush 2 administration foreign policy was the more unsuccessful during my lifetime due to it's aggressive-yet-very-shortsighted stances, and most Republican candidates have said that they're going to break deals that keep our enemies in check, which would furthermore make the US untrustworthy in the eyes of the world.

When compared to incompetence like her opposition, Hillary doesn't need to be great to be better. But in some areas like economy, health care, marriage rights, and such, she is much better, so Clinton has those selling points as well.




quote:
You wanna talk about bankruptcy's vs failed foreign policies? I'd vote for a guy that goes bankrupt and comes back to be a billionaire over and over, over a crooked politician any day. But doesn't mean I'm voting for him because he will never make the primary.. Besides America is bankrupt anyways, read the news. Maybe Obama should put tariffs on Chinese goods, but I know you have an answer for that too on why he does not. After all that would bring jobs back to the US..laughing out loud



America isn't bankrupt, people who say so have a fundamental misunderstanding of how debt works. Our debt isn't even near the highest it's been as percentage of GDP, and we can easily pay off more if we want to boot by returning to the tax level we had in the 50s-60s.


And tariffs? Hah, that would cost us more money *and jobs* from lost trade!

We sell China huge amounts of stuff, if we put on tariffs, they'd simply do the same back and we'd both lose out.


Read up on the history of the Great Depression. The initial economic hit wasn't that big, but because everyone went protectionist with the tariffs, it became so bad.


Furthermore, the US unemployment rate is 5.4% and still improving. That's pretty darn good (better than Bush 2's performance, at least comparable to Reagan's). We need better jobs, to be sure, but we are not particularly in need of low-end manufacturing jobs of the type China provides anyway, so we're better off continuing to sell them the more advanced stuff we provide rather than getting in a trade war.


As for Trump, the method he used to recover, i.e. getting people to give him money for new projects, simply doesn't work on a national level. We're the richest starting off, and under Obama/Democratic economics we're getting richer. For Trump's method to come into play, we'd have to fall severely, then turn to other countries- like China, who you just advised pissing off- to bail us out. And even then, that's not making money, that's getting back to where he was before... temporarily, because poor management *does* cause him to fail again and again.



And that is why one needs to be educated about economics. A lot of people aren't even aware of how different policies do against each other, or how we're doing right now!

We've had a steady 6 year recovery at the same time that Europe and the UK underwent multiple-dip recessions, due to using the same austerity policies that the Republicans advocate, while meanwhile those countries that haven't used austerity, like the US, have been doing fine and recovered from the great recession better.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2015 07:11 AM
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Funny China has Tariffs on us and it does not cost them money or jobs.

Get a grip.

We can't easily pay out debt off, do you know anything?


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2015 02:45 PM
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Anyone who thinks we aren't destined for an economic collapse within the next few years or so is living in a dreamworld. I've posted several links in past threads (one was in the "Bad Ammo" thread)showing how we are trapped with no way out of our coming collapse. It's not a question of "if" it's ever going to happen but "when". It won't matter who President is either. People like Q99 need to wake up and smell the coffee.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2015 12:39 AM
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The "We could easily pay our debt off part" is hilarious and seated in dreamworld. The system of the Federal Reserve and the fractional reserve banking system they employ to create money out of thin air and then loan that fiat money out at interest insures the debt will never be paid and that the U.S. will always be in debt. Q99 is not only misinformed but delusional.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2015 02:25 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Star428
Anyone who thinks we aren't destined for an economic collapse within the next few years or so is living in a dreamworld. I've posted several links in past threads (one was in the "Bad Ammo" thread)showing how we are trapped with no way out of our coming collapse. It's not a question of "if" it's ever going to happen but "when". It won't matter who President is either. People like Q99 need to wake up and smell the coffee.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
The "We could easily pay our debt off part" is hilarious and seated in dreamworld. The system of the Federal Reserve and the fractional reserve banking system they employ to create money out of thin air and then loan that fiat money out at interest insures the debt will never be paid and that the U.S. will always be in debt. Q99 is not only misinformed but delusional.



Fun fact: This is not the highest percentage of national debt-to-GDP ratio we've had in our nation's history. That would be directly after WW2. Or in other words, we've come back from bigger.

Second fun fact: We can raise taxes very significantly and inject a lot of currency... while still keeping it at levels that not only have we had before, but downright prospered under, proportionally more prosperity than we did during any low-tax time (50-60s > 80s-00s). We literally did it using the same methods that people like Star428's links say will lead to our collapse, and it was the most prosperous part of last century.


Third fun fact: The last time the debt went down was under a Clinton, and were on the tend to continuing to decrease it significantly over the long term were it not for the Bush 2 tax cuts.

Fourth fun fact: Paying off the debt isn't the only way to lower it's effect, as the economy is continually growing. Indeed, we did not pay down the national debt after WW2, we simply outgrew it. If your debt increases at X% a year, but your economy grows more than that, then your proportional ability to pay it off increases every years, while it's relative impact decreases.

Fifth fun fact: We are by no means the most in-debt country in comparison to GDP. Japan has twice as much proportionally, and it has yet to significantly impact them, and they are still regarded as a safe stable economy it's very safe to loan to. Yes, we could double our debt and still be in zero danger of bankruptcy.

Sixth fun fact: Interest rates are currently so low that someone buying debt is essentially them paying the government to keep their money safe. Furthermore, debt is itself traded as an asset, creating economic activity and, yes, more money for us. Raising the debt in exchange for spending on infrastructure projects and similar would actually be quite profitable, and some economists are actually recommending such.

Seventh fun fact: The national debt was spent to zero precisely once, under Andrew Jackson. It immediately caused an economic crash, because the debt is such a stable investment (see 'it gets traded around' under 6) that it's lack causes instability.

Eighth fun fact: Every country on earth uses fiat money, because guaranteeing it against a government's promise is actually more reliable than commodity money like gold, which by nature loses value half the time, and gains the other half, and deflationary spikes cause regular small recessions because it makes holding money more valuable than investing it. Furthermore, gold being so valuable is, itself, purely a matter of supply and demand, it does not have the inherent value needed to truly be useful in it's own right, and thus the gold standard is not a way to avoid fiat currency, but rather a worst-of-both-worlds, half fiat system. Not using fiat currency is flat-out stupid.


Or to put it another way, your uninformed dismissal may be pithy, but in fact you're not familiar with the economics of the situation at all, the fact that we have not just one but multiple ways of lowering the debt, the fact that lowering the debt, keeping it even, or even raising it all have pros as well as cons, and is not the boogieman many wrongly assume it to be.

About the only 'we're doomed' move one can make is defaulting, aka declaring we aren't paying the debt any more, which immediately yoinks a huge chunk of the economy into oblivion by declaring it to not have value in exchange for no gain. No government has ever done so, because it's suicidal- and would be whether they used dollars, gold, or salt.





It turns out listening to soundbites from people who don't know economics- which is clearly what both of you have done- is no replacement for actually knowing economics and the specific history of the national debt, including the fact that we've been here before and did great during that time.


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Last edited by Q99 on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 09:16 PM

Old Post Jun 22nd, 2015 09:09 PM
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Doom-n-gloomers don't care about fun facts.

Any day now...


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Old Post Jun 22nd, 2015 09:20 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A good reason to not vote for her. She should divorce him.
Racist.


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Old Post Jun 22nd, 2015 09:23 PM
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Oh yea, and raise your hand if you've spent a significant time studying macroeconomics and the history and don't just take someone else's word for it.

*Sees own hand raised*

Oh, it seems it's me!



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Doom-n-gloomers don't care about fun facts.

Any day now...



I wouldn't quite call them doom-n-gloomers, as Republican/rightwing shills (Time claims to not support the Republicans that much, while at the same time gullibly swallowing every talking point they have about the Democrats and advocating for right-wing economics here), who gullibly follow the narrative of 'We're doomed unless you do exactly what we say,' because that seems to be the tactic used by that side to try and attract people, rather than actually puff up the benefits of theirs they try and present the other side as scary/doomed/etc..

Despite all evidence that exactly what they say has failed in the past, and heck, failed in the present, when the countries that did the opposite of what they said recovered well, while Ireland, the country that most followed the Republican's preferred methods, went to 14% unemployment, stayed their for several years, and then *finally* got down to 10% just recently.

And meanwhile, not knowing that the debt-as-percentage of GDP in the US is... already down from it's peak, due to growth.

(please log in to view the image)


They simply don't know anything about economics or the respective performance of different economic strategies in situations exactly like ours or worse. Personally, I take the strategies that work, but of course that requires knowing what strategies work, which in turn requires knowing what economic policies do and what the numbers mean, not just assume 'debt bad' or whatever.


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Old Post Jun 22nd, 2015 09:36 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Fun fact: This is not the highest percentage of national debt-to-GDP ratio we've had in our nation's history. That would be directly after WW2. Or in other words, we've come back from bigger.

Second fun fact: We can raise taxes very significantly and inject a lot of currency... while still keeping it at levels that not only have we had before, but downright prospered under, proportionally more prosperity than we did during any low-tax time (50-60s > 80s-00s). We literally did it using the same methods that people like Star428's links say will lead to our collapse, and it was the most prosperous part of last century.


Third fun fact: The last time the debt went down was under a Clinton, and were on the tend to continuing to decrease it significantly over the long term were it not for the Bush 2 tax cuts.

Fourth fun fact: Paying off the debt isn't the only way to lower it's effect, as the economy is continually growing. Indeed, we did not pay down the national debt after WW2, we simply outgrew it. If your debt increases at X% a year, but your economy grows more than that, then your proportional ability to pay it off increases every years, while it's relative impact decreases.

Fifth fun fact: We are by no means the most in-debt country in comparison to GDP. Japan has twice as much proportionally, and it has yet to significantly impact them, and they are still regarded as a safe stable economy it's very safe to loan to. Yes, we could double our debt and still be in zero danger of bankruptcy.

Sixth fun fact: Interest rates are currently so low that someone buying debt is essentially them paying the government to keep their money safe. Furthermore, debt is itself traded as an asset, creating economic activity and, yes, more money for us. Raising the debt in exchange for spending on infrastructure projects and similar would actually be quite profitable, and some economists are actually recommending such.

Seventh fun fact: The national debt was spent to zero precisely once, under Andrew Jackson. It immediately caused an economic crash, because the debt is such a stable investment (see 'it gets traded around' under 6) that it's lack causes instability.

Eighth fun fact: Every country on earth uses fiat money, because guaranteeing it against a government's promise is actually more reliable than commodity money like gold, which by nature loses value half the time, and gains the other half, and deflationary spikes cause regular small recessions because it makes holding money more valuable than investing it. Furthermore, gold being so valuable is, itself, purely a matter of supply and demand, it does not have the inherent value needed to truly be useful in it's own right, and thus the gold standard is not a way to avoid fiat currency, but rather a worst-of-both-worlds, half fiat system. Not using fiat currency is flat-out stupid.


Or to put it another way, your uninformed dismissal may be pithy, but in fact you're not familiar with the economics of the situation at all, the fact that we have not just one but multiple ways of lowering the debt, the fact that lowering the debt, keeping it even, or even raising it all have pros as well as cons, and is not the boogieman many wrongly assume it to be.

About the only 'we're doomed' move one can make is defaulting, aka declaring we aren't paying the debt any more, which immediately yoinks a huge chunk of the economy into oblivion by declaring it to not have value in exchange for no gain. No government has ever done so, because it's suicidal- and would be whether they used dollars, gold, or salt.





It turns out listening to soundbites from people who don't know economics- which is clearly what both of you have done- is no replacement for actually knowing economics and the specific history of the national debt, including the fact that we've been here before and did great during that time.


Everything you jus said is wrong, and its clear you have no clue what fractional reserve banking is and how its a complete fraud to the American people. And no Clinton did not reduce the deficit. Lol

I think you clearly have some blinders on.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2015 01:12 AM
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Here is a fun fact for you. Take it and deal with it

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2015 01:28 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Fun fact: This is not the highest percentage of national debt-to-GDP ratio we've had in our nation's history. That would be directly after WW2. Or in other words, we've come back from bigger.

Second fun fact: We can raise taxes very significantly and inject a lot of currency... while still keeping it at levels that not only have we had before, but downright prospered under, proportionally more prosperity than we did during any low-tax time (50-60s > 80s-00s). We literally did it using the same methods that people like Star428's links say will lead to our collapse, and it was the most prosperous part of last century.


Third fun fact: The last time the debt went down was under a Clinton, and were on the tend to continuing to decrease it significantly over the long term were it not for the Bush 2 tax cuts.

Fourth fun fact: Paying off the debt isn't the only way to lower it's effect, as the economy is continually growing. Indeed, we did not pay down the national debt after WW2, we simply outgrew it. If your debt increases at X% a year, but your economy grows more than that, then your proportional ability to pay it off increases every years, while it's relative impact decreases.

Fifth fun fact: We are by no means the most in-debt country in comparison to GDP. Japan has twice as much proportionally, and it has yet to significantly impact them, and they are still regarded as a safe stable economy it's very safe to loan to. Yes, we could double our debt and still be in zero danger of bankruptcy.

Sixth fun fact: Interest rates are currently so low that someone buying debt is essentially them paying the government to keep their money safe. Furthermore, debt is itself traded as an asset, creating economic activity and, yes, more money for us. Raising the debt in exchange for spending on infrastructure projects and similar would actually be quite profitable, and some economists are actually recommending such.

Seventh fun fact: The national debt was spent to zero precisely once, under Andrew Jackson. It immediately caused an economic crash, because the debt is such a stable investment (see 'it gets traded around' under 6) that it's lack causes instability.

Eighth fun fact: Every country on earth uses fiat money, because guaranteeing it against a government's promise is actually more reliable than commodity money like gold, which by nature loses value half the time, and gains the other half, and deflationary spikes cause regular small recessions because it makes holding money more valuable than investing it. Furthermore, gold being so valuable is, itself, purely a matter of supply and demand, it does not have the inherent value needed to truly be useful in it's own right, and thus the gold standard is not a way to avoid fiat currency, but rather a worst-of-both-worlds, half fiat system. Not using fiat currency is flat-out stupid.


Or to put it another way, your uninformed dismissal may be pithy, but in fact you're not familiar with the economics of the situation at all, the fact that we have not just one but multiple ways of lowering the debt, the fact that lowering the debt, keeping it even, or even raising it all have pros as well as cons, and is not the boogieman many wrongly assume it to be.

About the only 'we're doomed' move one can make is defaulting, aka declaring we aren't paying the debt any more, which immediately yoinks a huge chunk of the economy into oblivion by declaring it to not have value in exchange for no gain. No government has ever done so, because it's suicidal- and would be whether they used dollars, gold, or salt.





It turns out listening to soundbites from people who don't know economics- which is clearly what both of you have done- is no replacement for actually knowing economics and the specific history of the national debt, including the fact that we've been here before and did great during that time.


Only in America can you meet some bozo's online and think saying ****** is ok, fractional reserve banking is ok, being taxed on imports to China while saying if we do the same, we will lose jobs here. That a billionaire declaring bankruptcy is worse then a complete failure of foreign policy and foreign donation's to a campaign and fund. And don't get me started on Hilary's Email SNAFU.

This place is bogus circle jerk of retards without any common sense.

I'd like you to tell me how the fck being in debt 18 trillion dollars is ok and then say "Well Japan is worse" as that is supposed to smooth the situation over and make it better. I guess you don't know how fcked Japan is, and its only getting worse cause of Fukushima.

Your only solution is to "RAISE TAXES" which you keep saying. Yea sure raise the taxes, cause we all know taxes only get raised on the little guys, and the liberals who are billionares like Gates and Buffet sneak outa them. Your brain is so small thats the only way it works for you RAISE TAXES..

How about bring manufacturing back to America.
Throw the EPA out the window and start over.
Start requiring large corporations to offset there energy usage with solar, wind and other renewables.
Quit trying to save bait fish in California and dumping trillions of gallons in the ocean for them. (OMEGA) The wetlands left California 30 years ago, and California has been liberal for way longer, so I don't wanna hear it, its their own fault.
Raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour.
Cut out all the government waste and the billion dollar black ops projects that we never see.
Quit giving Middle East our money with Oil.
Start exporting Natural Gas, and using it as a wide produced fuel source in America.

Thats just a start of some fun facts. Carry on.


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2015 01:43 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, and raise your hand if you've spent a significant time studying macroeconomics and the history and don't just take someone else's word for it.

*Sees own hand raised*

Oh, it seems it's me!






I wouldn't quite call them doom-n-gloomers, as Republican/rightwing shills (Time claims to not support the Republicans that much, while at the same time gullibly swallowing every talking point they have about the Democrats and advocating for right-wing economics here), who gullibly follow the narrative of 'We're doomed unless you do exactly what we say,' because that seems to be the tactic used by that side to try and attract people, rather than actually puff up the benefits of theirs they try and present the other side as scary/doomed/etc..

Despite all evidence that exactly what they say has failed in the past, and heck, failed in the present, when the countries that did the opposite of what they said recovered well, while Ireland, the country that most followed the Republican's preferred methods, went to 14% unemployment, stayed their for several years, and then *finally* got down to 10% just recently.

And meanwhile, not knowing that the debt-as-percentage of GDP in the US is... already down from it's peak, due to growth.

(please log in to view the image)


They simply don't know anything about economics or the respective performance of different economic strategies in situations exactly like ours or worse. Personally, I take the strategies that work, but of course that requires knowing what strategies work, which in turn requires knowing what economic policies do and what the numbers mean, not just assume 'debt bad' or whatever.


The government could not even run the US Postal Service. The government is the only corporation that can keep its doors open and run at a loss, how? Because they know they can just get the fed do some some "Magic Money" and create money out of thin air.

I love your US Government spending chart too. laughing
I guess since Obama is in office that chart is correct? I mean if you had pulled that chart when Bush was is office would it have been legit?


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Old Post Jun 23rd, 2015 01:55 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Here is a fun fact for you. Take it and deal with it

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

(please log in to view the image)


Not sure why you said "Clinton did not lower. Lol" when this graph shows it being lower when he left office than it was went he went into office.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 04:26 AM
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He balanced the budget, he didn't lower the over all debt by much of anything, he dipped it down a tad due to huge military/intelligence cuts that lead to 9/11.

He didn't do anything to prevent 9/11 happening, then Bush walked into a nightmare of national security and we got attacked, then democratic congress voted for the war, and the death soared.

Its Clintons fault we had the sub prime collapse. <-Canon

And where is Obama's deficit pay down? Its skyrocketed.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 04:32 AM
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Robtard
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The graph you posted shows that it was over 60% when he took office and it was under 60% when he left. So sorry, but the graph does now support your narrative.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 04:41 AM
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End result was He caused Sub prime, 9/11 and the deep recession. His impact was worse then his pithy pay down of nominal figures. Look what happened with Bush. Bush inherited Clintons/Gore/Franks disaster.

Don't be black and white and say "OH LOOK THE NUMBERS!" Anyone who can understand economics with the economic meltdown can see right through those numbers.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 04:48 AM
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