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Donald Trump, 45th President of the United States
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Bentley
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So you bring numbers so we don't make conclusions out of them? confused


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 09:41 AM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
End result was He caused Sub prime, 9/11 and the deep recession. His impact was worse then his pithy pay down of nominal figures. Look what happened with Bush. Bush inherited Clintons/Gore/Franks disaster.

Don't be black and white and say "OH LOOK THE NUMBERS!" Anyone who can understand economics with the economic meltdown can see right through those numbers.


If it's going to be the "pass-the-blame-game", then Clinton inherited the Reagan/Bush mess. Deficit skyrocketed under those two, under 40% to over 60%. Osama Bin Laden was trained by US military operatives under those two. What we call now "Islamic extremist" were armed under those two. Saddam Hussein was supported and armed under those two (Iran-Iraq War 80-88).

So really, it all goes back to Reagan/Bush under your rules.


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Last edited by Robtard on Jun 24th, 2015 at 03:56 PM

Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 03:48 PM
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Well we can pass it all the way back to Wilson who enacted the federal reserve and then stated he has ruined his country

God Bless America


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 04:22 PM
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Flyattractor
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You Lefties are so funny.....but not in a fun way.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 04:27 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Well we can pass it all the way back to Wilson who enacted the federal reserve and then stated he has ruined his country

God Bless America


Stop being so dramatic.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 05:21 PM
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Flyattractor
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You first


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 06:15 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Stop being so dramatic.


"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.
~ Woodrow Wilson"


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Last edited by Time-Immemorial on Jun 24th, 2015 at 06:25 PM

Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 06:18 PM
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Flyattractor
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Just like how Obama and the Democrats are all shills to Wall Street and the Big Corporations.

Some things never change.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 08:37 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Just like how Obama and the Democrats are all shills to Wall Street and the Big Corporations.

Some things never change.



Here's the thing: Both parties are shills to Wall Street and special interests (which special interests varies, and some of 'em are in turn much more preferable than others in various areas, but I digress). And even corporations have different interests- The RIAA wants to clamp down the internet, Google wants the opposite, for example. I root for Google in that fight.


What policy they do in pursuit of this still noticeably changes, and how much those policies help or hurt everyone else is still purely a material thing.


Economics, ultimately, is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of numbers. This does that, this makes that number goes up, that makes this number go down.

The two parties, currently, are each arguing for economic policy where the numbers, and their effect, are very well known and documented.


There is one policy that, fairly consistently, has caused economic growth, drop in unemployment, and so on.

There is another that has, in the last few years alone, caused multiple recessions in various countries worldwide, and going back further, has always driven up debt (more-so than their competitors) despite the party's supposed anti-debt stance.

Furthermore, this one party has suggested and fought for, repeatedly, a policy that would cause an economic collapse. And in pursuit of this goal, has actually done numerous smaller activities that have cost the US tens of billions of dollars, purely for ideological-economic reasons, and not for any economic benefit that any economist of any side could see to any numbers (I'm talking the debt default here).



Motives-wise, I find one party's ties more questionable than another, but even aside from that, we have a choice between two sets of economic policies, one which has, objectively, done one set of things, and the other, objectively, has done another set.


I think I'll go for the one that actually has helped the middle class, lowered unemployment almost by half, and grown the economy, and not the one that is worse at all of those things and gave some European countries multi-dip recessions while we chugged along on our recovery.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 10:35 PM
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Robtard
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Q99, he's just trolling for attention, if this thread had more Rightwingers/Republicans, his comment would have read as:

'Just like how Republicans are all shills to Wall Street and the Big Corporations.' or similar


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 10:50 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Well we can pass it all the way back to Wilson who enacted the federal reserve and then stated he has ruined his country

God Bless America



Fun fact: Both the number and severity of economic downturns has decreased significantly, and the amount of growth has increased, over time and definitely since the formation of the reserve. The reserve is also directly tied to our recovery from the recession, due to it being more free to conduct stimulus due to congress blocking other avenues.


You're relying on soundbites hand-picked by people with confirmation bias, ignoring numbers.


You are choosing to believe something is bad purely because someone told you it was bad, without actually looking at the numbers or history.

(please log in to view the image)

The gray bars are the recessions. The number decreased some after 1913- though they didn't become truly rare until the gold standard was eliminated.



Now, one can either chose the policy that decides the numbers based on soundbites detached from reality, or one can decide based on numbers that don't change no matter who you are.

I pick the latter.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 10:54 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Q99, he's just trolling for attention, if this thread had more Rightwingers/Republicans, his comment would have read as:

'Just like how Republicans are all shills to Wall Street and the Big Corporations.' or similar


Nah, he's one of those "I'm against both parties!... I just dislike the Democrats more so I only focus on them," types.

Like the Federal Reserve talk and such, that's a right-wing talking point.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 10:55 PM
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Robtard
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Okay then, have fun.


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Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 10:56 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Here is a fun fact for you. Take it and deal with it

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

(please log in to view the image)



Note how that graph is incomplete. Note how it goes down under Clinton, *up* under Bush despite him not having, and as we all know, the initial surge in debt under Obama was due to activities done to combat the great recession that began under Bush.

And that chart is a few years out of date.

You see where I'm going with this?

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

(With some near-future predictions)


Ohh yes, it's no longer increasing (in respect to portion of GDP) and is on track to go on decline by the end of Obama's term.


Despite him literally dealing with the biggest economic crash since the Great Depression, he's able to nudge it onto a downward course, while Bush left it pointed up from beginning to end.



Aren't charts wonderful? Sure, if you pick and choose one to leave off precisely where the fun starts, you can make it *look* bad, but nah,


And note how unemployment during this time was...

(please log in to view the image)

Going down constantly during this time, and noticeably lower than when he took office (note that chart is almost a year out of date, we're lower still now)

And gross domestic product...

(please log in to view the image)


Also up.


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Last edited by Q99 on Jun 24th, 2015 at 11:09 PM

Old Post Jun 24th, 2015 11:04 PM
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Time-Immemorial
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Fun fact: Both the number and severity of economic downturns has decreased significantly, and the amount of growth has increased, over time and definitely since the formation of the reserve. The reserve is also directly tied to our recovery from the recession, due to it being more free to conduct stimulus due to congress blocking other avenues.


You're relying on soundbites hand-picked by people with confirmation bias, ignoring numbers.


You are choosing to believe something is bad purely because someone told you it was bad, without actually looking at the numbers or history.

(please log in to view the image)

The gray bars are the recessions. The number decreased some after 1913- though they didn't become truly rare until the gold standard was eliminated.



Now, one can either chose the policy that decides the numbers based on soundbites detached from reality, or one can decide based on numbers that don't change no matter who you are.

I pick the latter.


Which sound bites and hand picked people am I relying more on? I missed that part or you have made it up in that dual personality you have.


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2015 12:16 AM
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Flyattractor
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OMG.....they have actually started using charts and graphs.....*jumps out the window before this place goes from a message board to a Board Meeting*


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Old Post Jun 25th, 2015 01:01 AM
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Surtur
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So I have to say now I kind of somewhat support Trumps stance on illegal immigration. Not the whole "they are all rapists and murderers" but we definitely need some major changes to happen, look at this disgusting story:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-border-n386646

Here is the most important/messed up part:

"Sanchez is an undocumented immigrant who has been deported from the U.S. five times. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement said Sanchez was turned over to San Francisco authorities in San Francisco on March and that the agency had asked for him to remain in custody until immigration authorities could pick him up. That request was not honored,"

Been deported several times, was requested to remain in custody until they could deport him again, but SF said nope because they are a "sanctuary city" and now an innocent person is dead. I'd honestly be looking into suing the city or whoever I could over this if I was related to the person killed.

I honestly hope maybe the article got some details wrong or something, because I can't wrap my head around the fact this guy had already been deported several times and yet they refused to hold him in custody.


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Last edited by Surtur on Jul 4th, 2015 at 02:42 PM

Old Post Jul 4th, 2015 02:39 PM
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psmith81992
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quote:
If it's going to be the "pass-the-blame-game"

If we play the blame game, we can find a shitstorm from either party running the country, which makes this an exercise in futility.

quote:
Going down constantly during this time, and noticeably lower than when he took office (note that chart is almost a year out of date, we're lower still now)

People really need to stop using unemployment charts because the number of people who are no longer part of the employment numbers (they gave up) is increasing dramatically. But this entire thread is about each side posting favorable statistics to his side.


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Old Post Jul 4th, 2015 02:48 PM
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jinXed by JaNx
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Socialism is communism in disguise. Trust me, I come from a socialist country.


Yeah thats what i was trying to tell the Big Bamaiststs Obama did did exactly the opposite of everything he set out to do. And he did it well


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Old Post Jul 5th, 2015 04:31 PM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
PR,

Because the US political Right makes socialism out to be were the poor (who are inherently lazy, because that's what makes someone poor in the US) get to sit around and be lazy, while the 'good, honest and hardworking red-blooded Americans' have to give all their money to support their laziness.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
That's borderline retarded.


And to think, a lot of the older, voting generation think like this, because they get almost all of their political news and views from a conservative, fear-mongering, hate-spewing program. (Hint: Fox News)

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Socialism is communism in disguise. Trust me, I come from a socialist country.


That's not even semantics; that's just plain wrong.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 05:16 PM
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